Ep. 7 – Gaby

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With Gaby Vineyard, @princess.vineyard on Instagram, House Mother of the Kiki House of Juicy, Voguer, Dancer, Organizer.

Gian:  Hey everyone. My name is
Gian Hernandez. I am a postdoc at the University of Amsterdam in the Amsterdam
School of Communication Research, and this is the Critical Beings Podcast. Today’s
podcast guest is somewhat that I’ve wanted to connect to for a long time. this
is Gaby Vineyard. She is an organizer. Dancer, teacher Princess of the House of
Vineyard and the Dutch mother of the Kiki House of Juicy. Uh, so if she’d like
to, well, it’s what’s welcome Gaby. And, Hey Gaby, if you wanna add anything
about your long list of credentials right now, it would be a good time. So,
like, can you tell us a little bit, what does this mean? House Mother, what’s
all that about?

Gaby: Thank you first for welcoming me. Yeah. What does that mean? Being
a house mother, it means a lot. It means being a leader, it means being an
example for a lot of what we call kids in the scene. People who you kind of
like take under your wing and yeah, you educate them about like the ballroom
scene, but it’s also more about like, yeah, pointing them in the right way when
it comes to also real life and the ballroom life. Cause of course, like it’s a
scene, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a community, but it’s more than that of course.           Cause we, you also really connect with
these people besides, like, in the outside world, not only in the ballroom
scene. So yeah, it’s a lot of things. It’s an important role. Let’s say that
like.

Gian: nice.

Gaby:  You would have how everyone
has a mother, a real mother. Well, that’s kind of what you do. But then, you
know, Different way. Yeah.

Gian: In a community sense. I love that.

Gaby:  In a community way. Yeah.

Gian: And what kind of, what kind of folks who are, who are, who are your
kids? What kind of folks, um, are part of the community?

Gaby: Yeah, the queer, a lot of queer people. A lot of queer kids. Yeah.
Yeah. I can, do you want, do you want, do you want me to name names?

Gian: No, no. I mean, not name the names.

Gaby: I’m just saying how always like, yeah, just like, yeah, like it’s
of course, like the ballroom scene is for a lot of LGBTQ people. Of course, we
also have like straight. Now, let’s say we have more straight women than
straight men, because it will be a little bit weird if straight men will be
there just because yeah. The, the scene is built for the LGBTQ community. So
yeah, it’s mostly like kids like young LGBTQ people, like gay, you know, gay
men or like, you know, lesbian women or trans people, or yeah, non-binary
people, like all those. You know, those kinds of people, those people are the
ones we, yeah, educate or take under their wing, especially if they’re young
and maybe they’re still looking for their identity, for example, and they don’t
know. Yeah. How to move in the world yet because they’re, they feel different,
you know, maybe in school they feel different, they don’t feel home.And then we
try to give them the feeling of like, give feeling, like giving them a home to,
yeah. To feel comfortable in, you know, and to be themselves. Yeah.

Gian: Nice, nice. Yeah. So, Let’s just dive right in. Right? You’re, you
do a lot of things right? So, you’re the, the house mother of the Kiki House of
Juicy, and you’re also the princess, and you’re also an organizer, a dancer,
all of these things. So, I’m just gonna ask you generally about your work, and
you can focus on any aspect of this. But I’m just gonna ask, what do you feel
the most passionate about in your work? Broadly defined?

Gaby: I’m most passionate about, I think…Yeah, I think the, the dancing
aspect of it all, ’cause dancing is very like, a healing thing for me. So,
whenever I hit the stage, or it can be at a ball, like at a competition, but it
can also be at like, just like a stage for like a festival or in a club, like
every time when I hit the stage. Yeah. That’s really where I feel very
passionate about, because. I just feel like I can, like let go and feel free
and yeah, I can just share my light and my passion with other people, and also
make other people, inspire other people with it, you know? So, I think that’s
what I feel most passionate about. I also feel passionate about, of course,
like taking care of people, like being a mother. But yeah, I feel very
passionate when I can share my knowledge that I’ve learned all these years with
my kids and be like, okay, like look at them and be like, I see something in
them and I can, I wanna like bring it out. But then of course, It takes time,
you know, so that’s, that’s what I feel like very passionate about when I’m
like really trying to drill down and be like, no, come do this. Do it in this
way. Try this, try this. You know, like, yeah, that’s like really what I feel
passionate about. Then like voguing, the voguing aspect of it all.

Gian: Nice. Yeah.

Gaby: And my category is, uh, Vogue Femme. So, because you have different
styles of Voguing and what I do is called Vogue Fem and yeah, that’s what I’m
special specialized in. Okay,

Gian: So, there’s a couple things. What, so what, first of all, what is
Vogue Femme? I really, I mean, I just for the listeners out there and then,
could you maybe also talk about how those two things are interwoven? I mean,
you have this dance knowledge, you know, this, you say that you’ve collected
over the years and then the mothering aspect. So, if you could maybe explain
those two things like, what is Vogue Femme and how are the two things that,
that embodied knowledge and the mothering, how are those connected?

Gaby: Well, okay, let’s start with, well, Vogue Femme is like, Let’s say
the most hype thing right now when it comes to voguing. You may have seen it in
Beyonce, her shows, ’cause she has been on her world tour. She has a lot of
voguers in her, in her performance in her whole tour. So yeah, that’s the best example
I can give to people who are like maybe outsiders. Because for the rest, yeah.
Giving like Madonna Vogue. It’s like also a good example, but the, the style
that they do there is a little, is called Old Way. So, it’s like, like an older
version, like the first style of voguing. So that’s where it all starts. That’s
like the base of voguing. And then you have another building style that’s
called New Way. That one is a little bit more like, yeah, it’s also old style,
but it’s a little bit different than old way when it comes to like the
movements and the lines and stuff like that. Because when it comes to old way,
it’s got a posing and a pop dip and spin we call it. And with new way it’s more
like flexibility contortion, like putting your body in crazy like shapes and
stuff like that and the lines and like, you gonna go and splits, like people
do, like crazy stuff like that. Very flexible stuff. Uh, same with you should
also be very flexible. But when it comes to old way and new way, it’s a little
bit more like static. It’s more a little bit more like, I don’t wanna say
stiff, but it’s, yeah, it’s a little bit more like, like hard, like harder or
something in some way. And Vogue Femme, like you said, you hear it already in
the name Fem. It’s very feminine. It’s like being soft and like the movements
are very more, smoother. Yes, there’s also very like an energetic, thing in it
and a lot of power, but it’s still different from the other two styles because
it has more like, flowy lines in it. So yeah, I think that’s the best way I can
explain it, and like I said, like yeah, you see it now more and more these days
on Instagram, on TikTok, a lot of viral things are going on right now when it
comes to voguing and yeah, definitely Beyonce, her, the end of her show. You
see, some people like Honey Balenciaga, that’s a great Vogue Femme, Voguer. But
you also see some old way Voguer. So, I think that’s a nice example. So, for
the people who are wondering what I’m talking about, please check out Beyonce’s
show or YouTube. You can also also check on YouTube, Vogue Femme, just type it
in, you’ll find any, anything. And when it comes to being a mother, yeah. I
feel like being a mother, I’m not gonna lie, like it’s something not new to me,
but I’m still learning every day how to be a perfect mother because who is a
perfect mother, you know? So, yeah. I can say like, oh yeah, this is how you
are, this, this is what you do to be a good mother. But I don’t know, with
every like kid that I like, take under my wing, it’s different, you know? Cause
everyone has a different, like, baggage they carry, you know, through their
life.  So yeah, it’s like, It’s just
different. So, like I cannot really, like when comes to mother, like I’m still
like learning every day like how to deal with certain situations or how to be a
good mother or also communication wise, like communication is still a thing for
me. Also, like still figuring out how to be a good communicator, you know? So,
like, it’s still learning. but your question was how to, how I do, how I bring
those two together?

Gian: How you, yeah. The, so you talked about dancing and Vogue Femme and
the sort of the community, and this embodied knowledge that you have as a
teacher, and then the mothering part.There’s this, I hear like a, like an
emotional aspect, a communication aspect. So, I’m wondering how that. Comes
together for you,

Gaby: Yeah, it comes together every time. When we, like, for, for
example, yeah, when we, at the training or something, or yeah. The thing is,
I’m now, I just became actually the mother of the House. It was literally like
two, three weeks ago.

Gian: Congrats.

Gaby:  Thank you. But before, uh,
I’ve also been a mother, but it was never like something that I wanted to be.
It’s just something that came. This is something that happens whenever you are
in the scene, and you are there for a long time. You will meet certain people
who you see like, you should be in, in the scene where I’m at, like I see
something, what I, with other people, like with my mother, I have my mother,
you know, mother, Amber Vineyard. She saw something in me where she was like,
oh my God, that girl, we need to bring her into the scene ’cause she’s gonna
kill it. Like, you know, and I wanna help her with that. She did it with me.
Then she gave me the guidance and everything. She helped me when it comes to
outfits for the balls. Cause that’s what we also, we always, always have teams
when it comes to like the balls and then, you know, you have to have an outfit
and everything. She helped me with that. She helped me with like personal stuff
and everything and, yeah. The years go by. I became, I came into the scene when
I was like 15, you know, and you know, after a while, like I became older,
older, I grew up faster also because, you know, you’re in a different kind of
scene where you have to have tough skin, so that also makes you grow up faster.
So yeah, I think maybe around like, when I was like 20, I think 2019, that’s
when I started like. Yeah, being, I felt more comfortable in voting and in the
scene, and that’s when I start, I was like seeing other people when it comes to
like, just like random dance calls. I just saw some queer kids where I was
like, okay, I see that you, you’re already very, very talented, very talented. Just
like a, just a dancer, like a very talented dancer. But I think there’s also
potential for you maybe to come into Vogue scene and maybe become a voguer. Cause
I see in the way people sometimes move, I’m like, I think there could great
potential for voguing, like for Vogue Femme or, or like a voguing style. And
yeah, that’s how I started like seeing, this, yeah, my daughter, Iana, Mugler,
and. I saw something in her, I was like, no, I need to invite her to a
training. And then I invited her. She came there and that’s how it just
naturally went. And then because I brought her in the scene, she became my
daughter, and I became her mother. And it is something you cannot like plan. It
just happens. I never thought it was gonna happen to me, but it did. Cause look
at me now being a mother. But yeah, that’s how I think, like, yeah, bring those
two together. Cause after a while when you are becoming a mother and then you
realize, oh, I’m a mother of this person because I brought this person in a
scene. I am educating them, like I’m trying to teach them, like elements in the
in, in the, in the, in the Vogue Femme style, you know, and trying to teach
them how to, I don’t know, go into a duck walk, go into a catwalk, like all
the, like the movements and the style, but then you also create like a bond. After
the training, you know, Cause of course you are educating this person, but you
also wanna get to know this person. Who are you? How are your parents? Are you
good with your, you know, you’re with your biological parents? Are you good
with, are you doing at school? Why? Because yeah, of course this person is also
a young person. You wanna like, educate and help. So yeah, in that way, I think
in that way it comes together where you, you, I cannot really say like this is how
it comes together, but it just happens. That’s the thing.

Gian: Yeah. No, that’s, that’s super, super interesting. So many, so many
cool things to talk about, but I also, I’m really interested in, you know, so
you talk about the scene and the community, and then there are many people, I
imagine that, you know, are mothers are in houses or on teams that are
organizing the balls. There are the people that are, you know, running the
scenes. There’s other mothers. So, I’m wondering how do you identify with other
people doing. This kind of work in the community. Are you, do you have like a
positive relationship, contentious relationship? How are you, you know,
interacting with other people that you might sort of like see as your peers?

Gaby: Actually Good. Yes. Good. Of course, you have your, ups and downs,
but yes, I definitely have a good, like connection with other, mothers when it
comes to like, even when starting with my own mother, you know, like she helped
me a lot. She really educated me how to yeah, be a good mother. And what is
important for, well also the scene, you know, and also, yeah, like for personal
stuff, like how can I deal with, Like, when your kid, for example, comes with
you with an issue, you know? Like, you have your own problems in your life, you
know, you have your own issues and then it’s, it’s a hard task that you have to
like also, you know, deal with other people’s, problems. But that’s something,
yeah. I don’t wanna say you sign up for it, but. Yeah. Whenever you become a
mother of a person or for people, that’s what’s gonna happen. People are gonna
want your attention. They’re gonna want to let the, yeah, let to, to I say
that, to let the air out, you know, they need to need someone to talk to
sometimes, because sometimes they don’t have that at home with their real
parents, and it’s like, it’s hard for them, you know? So, Yeah, I think in that
way I identify a lot of it, like a lot of likes, other mothers in the scene
that I had conversations with and yeah, they all go through the same thing. They
all go through the same thing. It’s not just being like, oh, like, oh, I have
this very talented person and I’m gonna, let them win. Like all the grand at
the balls. And then after the ball I’m just like, oh, okay. Whatever. You know,
I don’t care about you. No, whenever you take someone under your wing, That’s
something that you need to take serious. And that’s some, that’s a, that’s a
person that really looks up to you. And yeah, whenever you need to be there for
them, you have to be there for them. Cause in the end of the day, you’re the
mother. It’s not just a title, it’s a whole job. And that’s what sometimes
people forget. Like it’s not just being like cute. Cause a lot of people love
to call themselves a mother, a mother, mother, mother. But I’m like, are you
really a mother? Do you do the job of being a mother or is it just cute to have
the name of being called Mother, you know? No, that’s not how it works. It’s a
lot more than that. So yeah, I think the people I look up to, my peers and stuff
like that, they really know how to be a good mother. And then when it comes to
like my own mother, Amber Vineyard, Naima L, and plenty of more mothers like
that I see. Like, okay, that’s how you should do it. That’s a real mother.
That’s what I call it.

Gian: The real mother. Okay. Very, yeah. That’s great, and so I hear
already in your, in your responses, like some critique, you know, some people
who, as you say, who are just trying to do, trying to be cute and saying like,
oh, I’m a mother, but you’re not actually doing the real mothering.So, I’m
wondering what does, what does critique mean to you? What does being “critical”,
it’s the, the title of this podcast, right? Critical Beings. What does being “critical”mean
to you? When I say the word critical, what comes to mind?

Gaby: When I think about critically, well, let’s start with the whole
scene is critical. Let’s start there. Because in the ballroom scene, like I
said, you need to be a tough cookie. You need to have tough, like tough skin.
So, ’cause there will be so much about, like it can be about anything. It can
be about your outfit; it can be about your hair. It can be about the shoes
you’re wearing. It can be about, the fashion. It can be about, um, the realness
that’s like a category. I’ll explain it later. it can be about the Vogue Femme
style that you like, the voguing style that you do, and then like certain
elements that you have to. Show whenever you walk a ball. And if you don’t do
that, then you will be criticized by the judges. You know, it’s literally, of
course, like at every ball, the main thing is being criticized because there’s
a judging panel literally that you’re dancing for, and they will criticize you
for whatever you bring to the floor, you know? Yeah. So, yeah, that’s the,
let’s start there with being critical and then, yeah, like I just said, like,
yeah. Criticism or like being critical or like that, that that thing is like, it’s
a good thing in the scene, but also a bad thing because it can also cause a lot
of problems, of course. Cause people don’t like to be criticized and stuff like
that. I am one of those people too, whenever people, people always tell me
like, Gaby, you don’t like to be criticized and stuff like that. But I’ve
learned with the years that of course, like it’s good also to get criticism
because it actually, helped me, in the end when it comes to yeah, being a
little bit more, I think aware of things learning wise also, you know, yeah, I
think if it’s healthy, criticism, you know, and it’s come from a good place
from someone, please like take it, you know? Cause otherwise you’re never gonna
learn and you’re just gonna be stuck at one. You know, at one place in your
life. And you don’t want that. You wanna, you wanna like develop, you wanna
learn, you wanna grow. And I think, yeah, with the ballroom scene and getting
that criticism, it will help you also in real life where you feel like, oh, I
would never think that, I was, I dare to do this. But because of the ballroom
scene, you create this confident that. You’re like, oh, okay. Like now I dare
to go to that interview or something for that job, or I dare to apply for this,
or I dare to go to this dancing audition because I’m already being criticized
by the ballroom scene by the judges. And I’ve been chopped like for so many
times. Chopped means like you’re being eliminated from the competition. And it’s
really a fucked-up feeling. Sorry for my, sorry for my French.

Gian: No worries.

Gaby:  It’s a fucked up feeling to yeah.
That you’ll like, prepare yourself, ousted and everything. You come on and you
think you look good, or you’re like bugging and then you getting a chop and you
cannot like, go further through the battles. And then what, but. In the
beginning of your journey in the ballroom scene, it will feel like the worst
thing ever. But then later in life you will learn, like you’ll realize, okay,
you know, for a reason, these people did that to me because now I come back
even harder and stronger, and then you can even like gag them more. They feel
like, oh wow, remember that bitch that chopped me. You know, bitch, I’m back
here. I am showing the girls how it’s done. You know, that’s, that’s what you
wanna, that’s what’s gonna give you that confidence boost. So, I’ve seen it
with a lot of people happening. Even with myself, I think I’ve been like
chopped in my whole 10 years of ballroom, like maybe one or two times. That’s
like, okay. ’cause you have people who are chopped with for so many times, but
the people who’ve been chopped so many times and they come back, I respect them
so much because they dare to come back to the place where actually you feel,
you can feel a little bit ashamed, you know? Cause of course you’re doing
something and you’re not. You’re getting a chop, you’re like, oh my God, it’s
okay. Did I do bad? You know? But if you come back and you come back stronger
and you show them like, I’m not giving up, believe me, is gonna give you a very
confident boost in life. Definitely. So, yeah.

Gian: Nice. Can you, you said, you mentioned the realness. Can you
describe this as a category?

Gaby: Oh yeah. The realness category. Well, it’s the, basically, well,
the realness is really about passing in the real world, and when I say passing,
it’s about the realness of your identity or the as the. No, wait. Let me say it
differently. So, when it comes to the, the butch queens, Butch Queens is like
the gay men in the scene, back in the days, you know, whenever they had to
apply for jobs, or especially if you’re a Black gay man or a Latin gay man.It’s
a little bit harder for you. Now it’s easier, but back in the days, it was
harder for them to get jobs or anything, like a regular, like good job that
they like, feel stable in. So, then they have to like to turn down the gayness
basically to get that job, you know? Or when it comes to, you know, if you
wanna go into the military or something like, so there was like a very
masculine, toxic energy. Yeah, you cannot be super queer there and being, you
know, flamboyant because they’re gonna be like, No, we’re not, you’re not gonna
get the job. So that’s why they made this category where the gay men had to
actually learn how to switch it up and how to actually act straight. So that’s
the whole point of the realness categories.Are you real enough to go up to the
judges and make them believe that you are a straight man while you’re actually
gay? You know, that’s the realness for the gay men. And when it comes to, uh,
for the trans women, it’s that they, um, actually same thing. Well, trans
women, you know, they’re born, they’re born as, men and then they, you know,
go, they go through into a transition and become women. And then, yeah. Are
they, passing enough that they really look like cis women? You know? So can you
go up to the judges and make them believe that you are. Assist woman. Like, you
know, you’re just, that’s just how you were born, you know, that’s basically
for the trans women when it, when it comes to wellness. So, yeah, it’s really
about passing. Can you go? Cause also, it’s also a safety thing when for the
gay men, it’s maybe a little bit easier, but for the trans women, it’s harder
because whenever they go outside and they get like clocked, we call it clocked.
It means like they get like, Someone, someone can see that they were like born
a man. You know? It can really bring them in dangerous situations where they
can maybe be attacked like randomly just because people of religion, religions,
you know, they don’t accept it or whatever. Like people get killed like almost
every day, you know, for that shit. So, yeah, it’s important that. It’s maybe
like the, the category itself, I don’t really like it, love it. Cause I don’t
like judging people on their appearance. But I get why they made this category
up because it, it does sometimes help people elevate their look and, um, so
that, yeah, in the end, when they go into the real world, they, they have less
issues with, um, being harassed by people you know, or being judged. Yeah. So
yeah, it’s, it’s double. It’s double. Yeah. Yeah, it’s a, it’s also because a
lot of people think it, it’s also a little bit of a toxic category. I can
understand that. It can be a little bit toxic, but yeah, if you know the real
reason about it, why they made it, like back in the days, you know, like in the
eighties, nineties, you will understand that, okay, I care why wellness is
still a thing, you know.

Gian: Yeah. So, the role of critique is also historical in a sense?

Gaby: Yes, definitely. Yeah.

Gian: Okay. Definitely. Nice, nice. So, for
the next question, I’m interested in sort of in embodiment, we’re talking about
bodies, we’re talking about, you know, different categories and movement, and I
wonder how you. Personally use your body in your everyday life. Obviously, you
teach and you, you’re using it as a, as an instrument for that purpose, but
what other aspects of your body do you find, important for your work?

Gaby: Like what other body part? You mean like a body part or?

Gian: maybe body parts or aspects of your body. Right. So, do you embody
a certain character or a certain way of being when you’re doing whatever kind
of work you’re doing?

Gaby: Ah, okay. yes. Like I’m definitely embodying like. The Femme
queens, you know, like the Femme queens are the trans women of, of the scene
and they are the ones who started actually the style Vogue Femme. So yeah, a
lot of times, yeah, that’s some, that’s like for everyone actually that wants
to do Vogue Femme.The essence of the, of the style folk femme really comes from
the Femme queens. And every time when you do folk them, you should embody them.
You know, because they are the ones who started it. You need to respect them.
And those are the ones that learned. Actually, everyone in the scene how to
really get down when it comes to Vogue femme. So yeah, that’s definitely
something that I always keep in mind, you know, embodying the femme queens and,
yeah, just like owning the whole feminine side of yourself, you know what I
mean? We have masculine energy. We, we have feminine energy, but when it comes
to like folk and me dancing folk, I’m really like a person that. Yeah, I just,
that’s why I just love Vogue Femme so much. Cause I could just feel so like
freaking like feminine, you know, to like the fullest because it’s so like sexy
and like, you know, playing with your hair, playing with your arms, playing
with your hips, you know, like moving with your hips and stuff like that. So
yeah, in everyday life I will always, like, I think I will never, there will
never go, a day like, buy that I would not like, use my body.When it comes to
Vogue Femme. Cause Yeah, Vogue Fem is just something that, it’s like whenever
you start it and it’s in your body and it’s like, it’s like you, You literally
live and breathe it like every day. Like whenever you start and you, you love
it, you cannot get rid of it. Like I kept told myself so many times, oh, I’m so
dumb with Barbara. Oh, I’m so dumb with Vogue Femme. I wanna do something else.
And then I come, I see this video on Instagram, or I hear this, like, good
beat. You know, like I’m nice beat. And I’m like, Ooh. And you just your body
just starts moving, you know? And there’s something, even when it comes to, not
even like Vogue beats, it can be any type of beat where I feel like, oh, you
can actually like vogue on this and then you automatically just like start
moving and like in a Vogue Femme way. Yeah, it’s really weird. Like I’ve never
experienced that with any other dances. So, like, so intense. Like I love other
dance styles. I do a lot of other dance styles, besides Vogue femme and I love
them all, but Vogue femme. It’s like something you can, yeah, whenever you do
it, it’s really like something that keeps on, it will never go away. It just
follows you til you’re dead.

Gian: Nice. Nice.

Gaby:  But yeah, I think, yeah,
that way when it comes to body movements and, yeah.

Gian: Nice. So, so you mentioned, you embody the fem queens and sort of
these trans women, the foremothers, right. The sort of ancestors of the, of the
scene. Definitely. Um, can you, can you maybe put a finer point on this? How,
how does one do this in, in the scene? When you, when you think about this,
what is something that you do with your, with your practice personally, like in
your, in your classes, for example.

Gaby: How do I do that? Yeah. Studying, studying the clips on YouTube and
yeah, try to go as far as back as possible. Cause of course there’s a lot of,
footage that’s, there’s no, I mean, there’s a lot of moments in the scene that
wasn’t able, they weren’t able to record it because these people were also not
like the richest people. You know what I mean? So, back in the days, they
didn’t have all the money to maybe have a camera or something like that, you
know? So, from the moments where they did started recording, like the balls and
stuff like that, like going back there, like watching videos of like movies,
like there’s one very popular movie Paris is Burning, where you can get all the
education when it comes to, you know, what is it between, what is a Femme
queen? What is it? This, what is it? You have posts now posts on Netflix where
you can also see a lot of like education about Femme queens and everything and
how uh, they do it and yeah, like I think like when you get into the scene, you
will, and if you’re educated by the right people, they would always tell you
like, look these people up on YouTube, look their names up. Study the study,
these clips, and yeah, look at them. These are the prime examples of how you
should, what should guide you in the right way of becoming a great like Vogue
Femme. Yeah. And I think if you, if you do that, then yeah, that’s how you
start, I feel like. And then you also have a new generation, of course new
people who can also inspire you. And then I always tell my kids like, or my
students like, look at these people also. Or there’s also many times where I
see like, A similarity in how someone like Vogues and I’m like, use remind me
of this person. Well go check them out on YouTube. Look, look them up, check
them out. I feel like you have something similar, so maybe she can inspire you
to another level in your performance. You know? So yeah, in that way.

Gian: Great. So there, so you’re saying that there, you look at sort of
archival media and like looking at older clips and then you kind of bring that
from the past to the present. Yeah, there’s like an embodiment that you can
see, right? A visual sort of, sense of like clips on YouTube or other media
forums Paris is burning, and then they kind of incorporate that.

Gaby: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I, and I always say like, okay, don’t
like copy and paste, you know? Because yeah, you don’t wanna be a copy catch,
you wanna be original. So yeah, I really said, I tell them just like use it as
an inspiration, but still, uh, yeah, still move and. Do Vogue Femme in the way
that you feel like it comes out of your body. You know, so whenever you dance
or whenever you vogue, try to, yeah, try to do what comes out of your heart and
move with that, you know, and then take the videos and clips as an inspiration.
Like, oh, maybe I can, oh, I can try this trick, or I can try this little thing
that she did. But never like copy and paste and be like, oh, I’m just gonna
look like her, because yeah, that’s not, you wanna be original.

Gian: Okay. So, we talked a little bit about, what aspects are, like,
what you are trying to embody sort of in your personal practice and how you
inspire your students. What aspects of other people’s bodies, now this is maybe
more about the field, what aspects of other people’s bodies are important or
what things do you notice, that other people are doing, for example.

Gaby: Yeah, what do I, what do I notice? yeah I think when it comes to
like, okay, then let’s say like Vogue Femme, yeah. What do I notice? Like, I
don’t know. It just keeps elevating actually, I keep, I. Being surprised by
other people. Like, yeah, even till this day, like there’s a whole new, new
generation of kids that use their bodies and like use the stuff of them, but I
feel like, oh my God, it’s like, I thought, oh, I could do like crazy shit. But
then I see them like doing stuff and I’m like, wow, okay, this is really, yeah.
I like, I have also some new kids and I’m like looking at them and I’m like,
whoa, okay. Like I’m only 24 and I always feel like an old ass bitch. Cause
I’m, I’m like just, my kids are like, you know, the energy and the dedication
and the way they move and the new things they do that I’m like, Yeah, they, uh,
really inspire me also, you know, when it comes to moving their body or moving,
using their body parts and like, yeah, like in a way that I will never, uh,
that I’ll never think of. Like, oh, I can, I can, I’m like, looking at them
and, and like, okay, you know, I’ve never seen that, but cute. Okay. I’m like,
use that. You know? So, yeah, I think in that way, Yeah, if I answered your questions?

Gian: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Are there, are there any, let’s say specific
body types or body styles or dance styles or things that they’re incorporating
that you notice that are helping to push this new generation forward? Is there
any specific kind of body or way that people are using their body that you
notice as a trend?

Gaby: Yeah. I, no, no, not the specific ’cause I feel like. We have so
many different types of body, like bodies in ballroom. Yeah, cause we all, we
have like a whole category that’s dedicated to bodies. Literally, there’s
literally like a category that’s called body and yeah. That’s all about like, well,
let’s say like the category body is a little bit different because that’s
really like focused. Yeah, that’s focused on a certain type of body. Cause
that’s also in this description, you always read like, oh, this is for like the
thick women, or this is for the thick man. This is for the muscled man. For the
muscled women, this is for the fitness girls. The fitness men. You know, so
that’s like a lot of different, you know, more like skinnier bodies. Skinnier. So,
there’s a lot of different, types there. But when it comes to Vogue femme,
Specific? No, I think everyone has like something different. Everyone really
has something different. There’s no, there’s no like kind of body that it’s
like, oh, you can only this body can only like vogue. I’ve seen people that I’m
like gagged about who are a little, maybe like a little bit like bigger, you
know what I mean? But they still like bring it, like they bring it with the
energy and the movements and I’m like, wow. You know, I feel so inspired and
people. I don’t know, like, yeah, like so many different people, you know,
that, that, that do Vogue Fem and you, I would surprise you. Like, like you,
you come to a ball and then you will see like the cutest little, like, you know,
maybe like nerdy man or girl, you know, like just like standing there. And then
they go on the stage and then they kill it, you know? And then it’s like, wow,
like you would never expect that person or. Their body, you know what I mean?
They say it like that to bring that, that energy or that type of like rawness,
and then they like just kill it, you know? So yeah, I cannot really say like a
certain body or, you know. It’s a hard, yeah. Yeah.

Gian: No, that’s great. That’s cool. It’s, you know, talking about
openness and being able to, you know, let folks bring what they got, you know?
Yeah, cool, cool, cool. So, so the, I guess we, I have like kind of four
categories of questions we’re coming up on the last category, but, and we
talked a little bit about it, but this is more general, right? So, I’m, I’m
asking what developments do you see in the field, like in the scene, in the
community as a dance teacher, as an organizer, sort of more generally, what
developments are you seeing? Like what things you see coming up, maybe good or
bad. And what would you like to see? What do you, what would you wish for the
future to kind of leave maybe a, a legacy even, or, you know, what do you want
to continue to do moving forward? So, there’s two things.

Gaby: Okay.  So, what development
do I see already?

Gian: Mm-hmm.

Gaby: Yeah, that’s tje first question. Yeah. the fellow that I received
already is that I see development in. Let’s say like, uh, the media, like the
media, social media, just people in general being a little bit more. Yeah,
open-minded. Like, you know, I see balls like being thrown at some places where
I was like, oh, you never thought that they would like to be open to have a
ball there and to have all these queer people in their space, but they do. So
that’s, for me, that’s a development. I’m like, wow, okay. People are really
seeing the dance not as like, oh, these LGBT people. No. They see it like, oh
wow. It’s really actually a cool thing. Like what they do is very like, Like,
it’s not just a, it’s not, it’s not a joke. You know what I mean? Like, we
trained for this, we like, we studied this, like we train our bodies, we have
to be ready, we have to stretch, we have to do all of that other work to, yeah.
To walk these competitions, you know, walk these balls and then, Development in
the scene? I think just the development of like, the scene growing bigger. It
comes to like the Netherlands, you know, it’s already like a big scene in
America and there’s also a big scene in Paris, but here in Amsterdam our scene
is also actually getting Yeah, way bigger. Like I see development in like the,
the talent of the kids. People who I, you know, who I see as like, kids or
like, who were my kids becoming like house mothers. And I’m like, oh my God,
wow. Like people are really on that level of like, you know, taking other
people under their wing and yeah, educating them and helping them, yeah growing
into, I don’t know, maybe mothers or whatever they wanna become. So yeah, I see
a lot of development in that, and what I would like to see for the future, I
think, That’s a, that’s a really good question. What would I, what would I like
to see? I don’t even know. I just hope that yeah, like we get what we deserve. Like,
yeah. When it comes to like, I don’t know, TV wise or something, you know what
I mean? That the right people would like, take the scene, the ballroom scene
and put it in a light, like a positive light, just like how Pose did it, for example.
But then, yeah, in like different ways or like in. I don’t know, like in
dancing competitions where like, you know, you see so many like dancing
competitions and then it’s always like this one. Sometimes you have this one Voguing
group, but sometimes not even, you know what I mean? And I hope it will, that
will become a little bit more normal in the dancing world. That voguing also
was, is also really, uh, uh, is, uh, I said, uh, that people really will
acknowledge, uh, Voguing more as a real dance style. Yeah, that’s what I want to
say. I feel like, I think like dancing wise in the danciing world, People still
devo a little bit like, oh, just that queer dance or the LGBT dance. You know
what I mean? I’ll you Oh no, it’s not, it’s not a real dancing, but it really
is. It’s not just like a joke. It’s not just like, it’s like any other style,
like hip hop, like this, like, you know, like ballet it, like it, it has a lot
of elements and things you need to learn before you can actually just like do
it. You know, people think they do it in the clubs. Like I’m voguing, I’m like,
no, you’re not, you know, that’s not how, yeah. It’s much as like, uh, like,
oh, I’m just gonna like to do this, and then I’m, then I’m voguing. No, it’s
really like something you have to like, go to a class, learn like train. It’s a
dedication. Like it takes a year for you to master this dance. Even get
somewhere that you can say like, oh, now I’m on a level. Like, I thought also
in the beginning like, oh, I can just do this little dance, you know, I saw on
YouTube and I’m just gonna take some classes and I can do it. Look at me now,
10 years further, you know, I’m still learning, you know, so just like any
other dance, I just hope that people will like, take it more serious and yeah. And
it also like, yeah, like maybe. I don’t know, for like shows I feel like it’s
already happening a little bit because of, of course, like people like Beyonce
that take like such a, they’re such a, such a big platform and they put people
there, you know, like voguers there, and then people see like, oh wow, okay,
this is interesting. Like, what is this? So, I think people like that are
already helping with the development of like, Scene and you know, um, so that
people are of the scene, of the ballroom scene are being seen. But yeah, I just
hope more artists are gonna do that. And then other people are getting bookings
and stuff like that, just like how they want like, I don’t know, hip hop artists
or whatever. People for shows. I hope they’ll also do that for voguing, a
little bit more, and not only in the pride month, but also just like the whole
year.

Gian: Yeah, that’s, yeah. I see. So, what I hear is you say that there
is, acknowledgement, at least in certain spaces, where you’re surprised that,
you know, balls are being allowed, like queer people are allowed to take up
space in certain places that you weren’t necessarily seeing before, which is
nice, obviously also usually in pride month, which I’ve seen as well. But then
you would like to see also, more legitimacy, more, you know, support. More
funding. More visibility, all that.

Gaby: Definitely more funding, yes. Because other people now are doing it
for the height and then they want like a ball being thrown and then they give
you a budget and it’s like, You want all of this, but then you don’t wanna pay
for it, you know? Like it’s a lot of work organizing about, I just did my first
ball, a couple of weeks, like a month ago, and I’m telling you, it’s no joke.
Like it’s a lot of work out of dedication, a lot of organizing. That’s why I
call myself an organizer, right. Organizer right now, because I’ll make,

Gian: but speak on it. Yeah, it’s ’cause because, no, I, that’s, that’s
something that, especially also for, for me and for my politics and for all of
this, like paying people for their time and, and you know, recognizing that
energy that people invest is so important. So, I would love to hear more about
this organizing.

Gaby: Yeah. Yeah. Even that, like, it’s with everything. It’s with like,
or like, yeah, for example, interviews or something, you know what I mean? And
other people ask so much, uh, from people from ballroom, but then they, yeah,
they don’t wanna pay for it. They just want the, the fun part of it, you know,
like the, yeah. Like you’re putting like a monkey in a cage and, let them
dance. You know what I mean? That’s kind of what, how they see it, you know,
like, oh yeah, just dance for us and oh yeah, we gonna film it and use it for
our media and amazing. Oh yeah. But is there budget? Oh, no. This is so I’m
here like sweating my ass off. You know what I mean? I’m here organizing all
this shit and then you’re not even gonna pay me for it, or you’re gonna pay me
for it, but not the, the right money for it. Because if you would book someone
else for a big comp, like a big thing like this, you will give them their money
and then if we like Ballroom does it, then it’s like, oh yeah, no, this is the
budget and now we have no more budget. Well, we know you have more budget, so.
What is it? You, you wanna use us or are you really gonna pay us for our time
and hard work that we did for all these years?

Gian: Yes. And that’s something, I mean, it’s so important and especially
this is something that I see for folks who occupy marginalized positions or the
LGBT folks, people of color. All of this, like our expertise that we work for
for years is often devalued. And this shit ain’t free. Is what I’m saying. So,
like for this interview, you know, for other things like we need to pay people
for their time, and this is something that I personally, you know, find really
important. So, I’m really glad that you mentioned this. So, anybody listening?
Yeah, just, I’ve said this in other episodes, but I’m gonna repeat it. Pay
people for their time.

Gaby: Pay people for their time. Definitely. Yeah, definitely. I’m done
with it. I’m really done with it. Like I’ve experienced so many things. In my
whole like ballroom career where, yeah, I’m happy I have the right people
beside me and behind me that, um, always arranged that wherever I perform, I
get paid, you know? But I’ve also heard so many stories of, you know, my other
friends that, you know, they’re basically just being used because then they
would tell me like, oh, I have this really cute like fab gig. And I would be
like, oh, nice. How much are you getting paid? And then they’d be like, oh,
we’re not getting paid. It’s just for the name. And I’m like, what? That’s not
okay.

Gian: because exposure doesn’t pay rent.

Gaby: Exposure doesn’t pay rent. Exactly. Yeah. And it’s, it’s cute for
them. Actually. You are doing them a favor. It’s not the other way around. Not
because you’re dancing for, I don’t wanna say like just a big brand like Nike
or something, you know what I mean? Like, oh yeah. Because we have a big name
that’s good for you. Yes, and no because. It’s also good for you that I’m doing
this for you because people are gonna see us dancing in these clothes or like,
like for this brand. And they’re also gonna be like, oh wow, that’s really
interesting. Oh, we wanna buy something here, or we wanna go there. And then
you’re actually using me because I’m bringing people to your company because
they see the way I’m moving and you’re just there in the background not doing a
thing and not paying us. And then after the, after, after the show, you’re gonna
be like, okay, thank you. Bye. And I never hear from you because you don’t
really care about me. You just care about my body and the way I use it; you
know? Yeah, exactly. You don’t care about me personally about like after I go
home and I Exactly. I can pay my rent, or I can mm-hmm. You know,

Gian: Yeah, a hundred percent. It’s about establishing like longer
standing community support, which in these cases, especially in financial terms
means.

Gaby: Yeah, exactly. And we’re already like a minority, you know, when it
comes to the theme. So, you should definitely, like, if you’re interested and
you wanna help us and you want, want us to, you know, and you want us to grow
and you want us to give that platform to, you know, to show ourselves and also
pay for that. Yeah, a hundred percent. And still, because, you know, already,
like, it’s already a hard life, you know, for certain people. So, No. If you
really wanna be an ally, how always saying I’m an ally. I’m an ally. Well be an
ally and pay the people.

Gian: Yes, a hundred percent. Great. Okay, so this is, that was pretty
much the end of the like, formal questions and I think that’s a really good
message to kind of round out on. But I do want to offer you or to open the
space up and to say like, do you have anything else that you would like to add,
to say, to plug like any, upcoming performances or any. Classes are something
that you would like to put out there. Um, that’s one piece. And then the second
piece is, do you have anything that you would like to direct towards me? So,
questions, comments, concerns, angsst, any emotions, you know, anything like
that. So, you know, the plug or the putting out. And then also something for
me, if anything, right? One. It could be one. Both, neither. However, you feel.

Gaby: No, not really. I think, yeah, the. I’m happy we spoke about like
the whole paying, the whole paying people thing. That’s, that’s for me is like
the most, most important thing, but just for anyone, new kids, old kids, you
know, I feel like the older generation already knows what’s up, so we don’t
play anymore with that. We don’t let, we don’t, we don’t let people use us
anymore. But yeah, there’s always new people coming in and, I hope just new
people will be guided by the right people and also would not, will not be, yeah
used, you know, by people just because they’re great workers and stuff like
that. And yeah. For the rest, like, yeah. Maybe for new people. Yeah. When it
comes to classes, I actually have, injury right now, so I’m actually giving my
classes every, I’m starting in September again, but yeah. You can check out my
Instagram princess.vineyard and I will post definitely some classes. I don’t
know if I’m gonna give the classes, ’cause I’m gonna have my surgery on the
31st of August and after I’m gonna be recovering, but I want, I’m gonna be back
soon. It’s not a big surgery. It’s gonna be okay. Don’t worry guys. Okay. But yeah,
whenever I’m, I think I’ll be definitely back end of September. Yeah. Okay. I
think I will be recovering soon. So, yeah. Whenever.

Gian: We’ll put your, we’ll put your socials and any other link under
the, under this, on the website. So, we’ll have Okay. Link to your Insta and
stuff or anything else you might wanna add later, you know? Yeah, yeah,

Gaby: Yeah, yeah. Perfect. Yeah, so if you can just check it out there, I
would definitely post any upcoming, I don’t know if there’s any upcoming balls.
Cause was like a lot of balls like in the summer and now we’re going a little
bit more towards the winter, so it’s gonna be a chill, but yeah, definitely
follow my socials for anything that’s like. When it comes to classes or stuff
like that, I would definitely post it. There’s also some classes in Rotterdam You
can check out some of the classes in. Then hey, you can just look it up on
Instagram also. I’ll send you all the names of all the Instagram links and
stuff like that. Okay. But yeah, definitely like for people listening, check it
out if you’re interested. Be respectful. Do some education before you go to the
classes. Don’t just go there and be like, oh, they’re gonna teach me
everything. No, do your research. We’re not here to teach you everything. We
are here to teach you some stuff, but please do your own research also. That
will be nice.

Gian: Great. Cool. Alright, well thank you so much for your time and,
thank you for No problem, problem.

Gaby: Thanks for asking.

Gian:  Of course, of course. We
really, I really appreciate having you. Um, and so for everybody listening, uh,
yeah, thanks for paying attention. Please, uh, comment, share, engage with the
media and, um, stay critical.

Gaby: Thank you guys. Yeah.

 

 

3,402 thoughts on “Ep. 7 – Gaby”

  1. So
    yeah, it’s, it’s double. It’s double. Yeah. Yeah, it’s a, it’s also because a
    lot of people think it, it’s also a little bit of a toxic category. I can
    understand that. It can be a little bit toxic, but yeah, if you know the real
    reason about it, why they made it, like back in the days, you know, like in the
    eighties, nineties, you will understand that, okay, I care why wellness is
    still a thing, you know.    For me, as a participant in ballroom and having walked realness categories in balls, I had the same mixed feelings about it for a long time, because I found it to be a little toxic and unnecessary to celebrate the act of “passing”. As if us having to assimilate in a cishet society hasn’t done enough damage already. One of my elders in the scene flipped that around for me by telling me that while that is true, ballroom is not about living in an ideal world, it’s more like the opposite actually, it’s about facing reality as it is, and in response creating a space for ourselves, where we get to be ourselves, but also practice and grow stronger so we can claim our space outside of ballroom. Like Gaby said, the more you are able to go out into the world “unclockable”, the more safe you are. It’s fucked up, but it’s the reality queer people, and especially trans women, face everytime the go outside in public. Now it might be true that passing for straight or cis was more important back in the early days of ballroom, so the category might have lost some of its urgency, but even if it’s safer in some places in the world today, it’s still not safe for most, and most queer people in the world still know what it’s like to have to turn down the gayness or hide our transness to feel safer and more comfortable, and tha’s very taxing mentally, and it can require a lot of practice or even money to do so. So when you’re walking a ball in a realness category, it’s not just about getting those critiques to perfect your realness, it’s also a celebration of all the work you’ve put into it. Sure, in an ideal world we wouldn’t need to be able to pass, we wouldn’t need a realness category, but since we’re already doing it out there in the real world, why not have some fun with it within our own spaces. And it is fun, cause it’s like ridiculing and in a way critiquing the cishet dominant society we live in, cause even though, historicallly, we’ve been outcasts, we prove that everything the cis hetero people can do, we can do too, and often do it even better, but then we can also just drop it like that again, like it’s just a game to us. It’s poking at the facade that is “the real world”; like saying: “I can be just as real as you,” but at the same time proving that I can also be a million other things. It’s just a costume, and queer people get to see that, because we’ve always existed in the fringes, looking in from the outside.

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