With Gaby Vineyard, @princess.vineyard on Instagram, House Mother of the Kiki House of Juicy, Voguer, Dancer, Organizer.

Gian:  Hey everyone. My name is
Gian Hernandez. I am a postdoc at the University of Amsterdam in the Amsterdam
School of Communication Research, and this is the Critical Beings Podcast. Today’s
podcast guest is somewhat that I’ve wanted to connect to for a long time. this
is Gaby Vineyard. She is an organizer. Dancer, teacher Princess of the House of
Vineyard and the Dutch mother of the Kiki House of Juicy. Uh, so if she’d like
to, well, it’s what’s welcome Gaby. And, Hey Gaby, if you wanna add anything
about your long list of credentials right now, it would be a good time. So,
like, can you tell us a little bit, what does this mean? House Mother, what’s
all that about?

Gaby: Thank you first for welcoming me. Yeah. What does that mean? Being
a house mother, it means a lot. It means being a leader, it means being an
example for a lot of what we call kids in the scene. People who you kind of
like take under your wing and yeah, you educate them about like the ballroom
scene, but it’s also more about like, yeah, pointing them in the right way when
it comes to also real life and the ballroom life. Cause of course, like it’s a
scene, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a community, but it’s more than that of course.           Cause we, you also really connect with
these people besides, like, in the outside world, not only in the ballroom
scene. So yeah, it’s a lot of things. It’s an important role. Let’s say that
like.

Gian: nice.

Gaby:  You would have how everyone
has a mother, a real mother. Well, that’s kind of what you do. But then, you
know, Different way. Yeah.

Gian: In a community sense. I love that.

Gaby:  In a community way. Yeah.

Gian: And what kind of, what kind of folks who are, who are, who are your
kids? What kind of folks, um, are part of the community?

Gaby: Yeah, the queer, a lot of queer people. A lot of queer kids. Yeah.
Yeah. I can, do you want, do you want, do you want me to name names?

Gian: No, no. I mean, not name the names.

Gaby: I’m just saying how always like, yeah, just like, yeah, like it’s
of course, like the ballroom scene is for a lot of LGBTQ people. Of course, we
also have like straight. Now, let’s say we have more straight women than
straight men, because it will be a little bit weird if straight men will be
there just because yeah. The, the scene is built for the LGBTQ community. So
yeah, it’s mostly like kids like young LGBTQ people, like gay, you know, gay
men or like, you know, lesbian women or trans people, or yeah, non-binary
people, like all those. You know, those kinds of people, those people are the
ones we, yeah, educate or take under their wing, especially if they’re young
and maybe they’re still looking for their identity, for example, and they don’t
know. Yeah. How to move in the world yet because they’re, they feel different,
you know, maybe in school they feel different, they don’t feel home.And then we
try to give them the feeling of like, give feeling, like giving them a home to,
yeah. To feel comfortable in, you know, and to be themselves. Yeah.

Gian: Nice, nice. Yeah. So, Let’s just dive right in. Right? You’re, you
do a lot of things right? So, you’re the, the house mother of the Kiki House of
Juicy, and you’re also the princess, and you’re also an organizer, a dancer,
all of these things. So, I’m just gonna ask you generally about your work, and
you can focus on any aspect of this. But I’m just gonna ask, what do you feel
the most passionate about in your work? Broadly defined?

Gaby: I’m most passionate about, I think…Yeah, I think the, the dancing
aspect of it all, ’cause dancing is very like, a healing thing for me. So,
whenever I hit the stage, or it can be at a ball, like at a competition, but it
can also be at like, just like a stage for like a festival or in a club, like
every time when I hit the stage. Yeah. That’s really where I feel very
passionate about, because. I just feel like I can, like let go and feel free
and yeah, I can just share my light and my passion with other people, and also
make other people, inspire other people with it, you know? So, I think that’s
what I feel most passionate about. I also feel passionate about, of course,
like taking care of people, like being a mother. But yeah, I feel very
passionate when I can share my knowledge that I’ve learned all these years with
my kids and be like, okay, like look at them and be like, I see something in
them and I can, I wanna like bring it out. But then of course, It takes time,
you know, so that’s, that’s what I feel like very passionate about when I’m
like really trying to drill down and be like, no, come do this. Do it in this
way. Try this, try this. You know, like, yeah, that’s like really what I feel
passionate about. Then like voguing, the voguing aspect of it all.

Gian: Nice. Yeah.

Gaby: And my category is, uh, Vogue Femme. So, because you have different
styles of Voguing and what I do is called Vogue Fem and yeah, that’s what I’m
special specialized in. Okay,

Gian: So, there’s a couple things. What, so what, first of all, what is
Vogue Femme? I really, I mean, I just for the listeners out there and then,
could you maybe also talk about how those two things are interwoven? I mean,
you have this dance knowledge, you know, this, you say that you’ve collected
over the years and then the mothering aspect. So, if you could maybe explain
those two things like, what is Vogue Femme and how are the two things that,
that embodied knowledge and the mothering, how are those connected?

Gaby: Well, okay, let’s start with, well, Vogue Femme is like, Let’s say
the most hype thing right now when it comes to voguing. You may have seen it in
Beyonce, her shows, ’cause she has been on her world tour. She has a lot of
voguers in her, in her performance in her whole tour. So yeah, that’s the best example
I can give to people who are like maybe outsiders. Because for the rest, yeah.
Giving like Madonna Vogue. It’s like also a good example, but the, the style
that they do there is a little, is called Old Way. So, it’s like, like an older
version, like the first style of voguing. So that’s where it all starts. That’s
like the base of voguing. And then you have another building style that’s
called New Way. That one is a little bit more like, yeah, it’s also old style,
but it’s a little bit different than old way when it comes to like the
movements and the lines and stuff like that. Because when it comes to old way,
it’s got a posing and a pop dip and spin we call it. And with new way it’s more
like flexibility contortion, like putting your body in crazy like shapes and
stuff like that and the lines and like, you gonna go and splits, like people
do, like crazy stuff like that. Very flexible stuff. Uh, same with you should
also be very flexible. But when it comes to old way and new way, it’s a little
bit more like static. It’s more a little bit more like, I don’t wanna say
stiff, but it’s, yeah, it’s a little bit more like, like hard, like harder or
something in some way. And Vogue Femme, like you said, you hear it already in
the name Fem. It’s very feminine. It’s like being soft and like the movements
are very more, smoother. Yes, there’s also very like an energetic, thing in it
and a lot of power, but it’s still different from the other two styles because
it has more like, flowy lines in it. So yeah, I think that’s the best way I can
explain it, and like I said, like yeah, you see it now more and more these days
on Instagram, on TikTok, a lot of viral things are going on right now when it
comes to voguing and yeah, definitely Beyonce, her, the end of her show. You
see, some people like Honey Balenciaga, that’s a great Vogue Femme, Voguer. But
you also see some old way Voguer. So, I think that’s a nice example. So, for
the people who are wondering what I’m talking about, please check out Beyonce’s
show or YouTube. You can also also check on YouTube, Vogue Femme, just type it
in, you’ll find any, anything. And when it comes to being a mother, yeah. I
feel like being a mother, I’m not gonna lie, like it’s something not new to me,
but I’m still learning every day how to be a perfect mother because who is a
perfect mother, you know? So, yeah. I can say like, oh yeah, this is how you
are, this, this is what you do to be a good mother. But I don’t know, with
every like kid that I like, take under my wing, it’s different, you know? Cause
everyone has a different, like, baggage they carry, you know, through their
life.  So yeah, it’s like, It’s just
different. So, like I cannot really, like when comes to mother, like I’m still
like learning every day like how to deal with certain situations or how to be a
good mother or also communication wise, like communication is still a thing for
me. Also, like still figuring out how to be a good communicator, you know? So,
like, it’s still learning. but your question was how to, how I do, how I bring
those two together?

Gian: How you, yeah. The, so you talked about dancing and Vogue Femme and
the sort of the community, and this embodied knowledge that you have as a
teacher, and then the mothering part.There’s this, I hear like a, like an
emotional aspect, a communication aspect. So, I’m wondering how that. Comes
together for you,

Gaby: Yeah, it comes together every time. When we, like, for, for
example, yeah, when we, at the training or something, or yeah. The thing is,
I’m now, I just became actually the mother of the House. It was literally like
two, three weeks ago.

Gian: Congrats.

Gaby:  Thank you. But before, uh,
I’ve also been a mother, but it was never like something that I wanted to be.
It’s just something that came. This is something that happens whenever you are
in the scene, and you are there for a long time. You will meet certain people
who you see like, you should be in, in the scene where I’m at, like I see
something, what I, with other people, like with my mother, I have my mother,
you know, mother, Amber Vineyard. She saw something in me where she was like,
oh my God, that girl, we need to bring her into the scene ’cause she’s gonna
kill it. Like, you know, and I wanna help her with that. She did it with me.
Then she gave me the guidance and everything. She helped me when it comes to
outfits for the balls. Cause that’s what we also, we always, always have teams
when it comes to like the balls and then, you know, you have to have an outfit
and everything. She helped me with that. She helped me with like personal stuff
and everything and, yeah. The years go by. I became, I came into the scene when
I was like 15, you know, and you know, after a while, like I became older,
older, I grew up faster also because, you know, you’re in a different kind of
scene where you have to have tough skin, so that also makes you grow up faster.
So yeah, I think maybe around like, when I was like 20, I think 2019, that’s
when I started like. Yeah, being, I felt more comfortable in voting and in the
scene, and that’s when I start, I was like seeing other people when it comes to
like, just like random dance calls. I just saw some queer kids where I was
like, okay, I see that you, you’re already very, very talented, very talented. Just
like a, just a dancer, like a very talented dancer. But I think there’s also
potential for you maybe to come into Vogue scene and maybe become a voguer. Cause
I see in the way people sometimes move, I’m like, I think there could great
potential for voguing, like for Vogue Femme or, or like a voguing style. And
yeah, that’s how I started like seeing, this, yeah, my daughter, Iana, Mugler,
and. I saw something in her, I was like, no, I need to invite her to a
training. And then I invited her. She came there and that’s how it just
naturally went. And then because I brought her in the scene, she became my
daughter, and I became her mother. And it is something you cannot like plan. It
just happens. I never thought it was gonna happen to me, but it did. Cause look
at me now being a mother. But yeah, that’s how I think, like, yeah, bring those
two together. Cause after a while when you are becoming a mother and then you
realize, oh, I’m a mother of this person because I brought this person in a
scene. I am educating them, like I’m trying to teach them, like elements in the
in, in the, in the, in the Vogue Femme style, you know, and trying to teach
them how to, I don’t know, go into a duck walk, go into a catwalk, like all
the, like the movements and the style, but then you also create like a bond. After
the training, you know, Cause of course you are educating this person, but you
also wanna get to know this person. Who are you? How are your parents? Are you
good with your, you know, you’re with your biological parents? Are you good
with, are you doing at school? Why? Because yeah, of course this person is also
a young person. You wanna like, educate and help. So yeah, in that way, I think
in that way it comes together where you, you, I cannot really say like this is how
it comes together, but it just happens. That’s the thing.

Gian: Yeah. No, that’s, that’s super, super interesting. So many, so many
cool things to talk about, but I also, I’m really interested in, you know, so
you talk about the scene and the community, and then there are many people, I
imagine that, you know, are mothers are in houses or on teams that are
organizing the balls. There are the people that are, you know, running the
scenes. There’s other mothers. So, I’m wondering how do you identify with other
people doing. This kind of work in the community. Are you, do you have like a
positive relationship, contentious relationship? How are you, you know,
interacting with other people that you might sort of like see as your peers?

Gaby: Actually Good. Yes. Good. Of course, you have your, ups and downs,
but yes, I definitely have a good, like connection with other, mothers when it
comes to like, even when starting with my own mother, you know, like she helped
me a lot. She really educated me how to yeah, be a good mother. And what is
important for, well also the scene, you know, and also, yeah, like for personal
stuff, like how can I deal with, Like, when your kid, for example, comes with
you with an issue, you know? Like, you have your own problems in your life, you
know, you have your own issues and then it’s, it’s a hard task that you have to
like also, you know, deal with other people’s, problems. But that’s something,
yeah. I don’t wanna say you sign up for it, but. Yeah. Whenever you become a
mother of a person or for people, that’s what’s gonna happen. People are gonna
want your attention. They’re gonna want to let the, yeah, let to, to I say
that, to let the air out, you know, they need to need someone to talk to
sometimes, because sometimes they don’t have that at home with their real
parents, and it’s like, it’s hard for them, you know? So, Yeah, I think in that
way I identify a lot of it, like a lot of likes, other mothers in the scene
that I had conversations with and yeah, they all go through the same thing. They
all go through the same thing. It’s not just being like, oh, like, oh, I have
this very talented person and I’m gonna, let them win. Like all the grand at
the balls. And then after the ball I’m just like, oh, okay. Whatever. You know,
I don’t care about you. No, whenever you take someone under your wing, That’s
something that you need to take serious. And that’s some, that’s a, that’s a
person that really looks up to you. And yeah, whenever you need to be there for
them, you have to be there for them. Cause in the end of the day, you’re the
mother. It’s not just a title, it’s a whole job. And that’s what sometimes
people forget. Like it’s not just being like cute. Cause a lot of people love
to call themselves a mother, a mother, mother, mother. But I’m like, are you
really a mother? Do you do the job of being a mother or is it just cute to have
the name of being called Mother, you know? No, that’s not how it works. It’s a
lot more than that. So yeah, I think the people I look up to, my peers and stuff
like that, they really know how to be a good mother. And then when it comes to
like my own mother, Amber Vineyard, Naima L, and plenty of more mothers like
that I see. Like, okay, that’s how you should do it. That’s a real mother.
That’s what I call it.

Gian: The real mother. Okay. Very, yeah. That’s great, and so I hear
already in your, in your responses, like some critique, you know, some people
who, as you say, who are just trying to do, trying to be cute and saying like,
oh, I’m a mother, but you’re not actually doing the real mothering.So, I’m
wondering what does, what does critique mean to you? What does being “critical”,
it’s the, the title of this podcast, right? Critical Beings. What does being “critical”mean
to you? When I say the word critical, what comes to mind?

Gaby: When I think about critically, well, let’s start with the whole
scene is critical. Let’s start there. Because in the ballroom scene, like I
said, you need to be a tough cookie. You need to have tough, like tough skin.
So, ’cause there will be so much about, like it can be about anything. It can
be about your outfit; it can be about your hair. It can be about the shoes
you’re wearing. It can be about, the fashion. It can be about, um, the realness
that’s like a category. I’ll explain it later. it can be about the Vogue Femme
style that you like, the voguing style that you do, and then like certain
elements that you have to. Show whenever you walk a ball. And if you don’t do
that, then you will be criticized by the judges. You know, it’s literally, of
course, like at every ball, the main thing is being criticized because there’s
a judging panel literally that you’re dancing for, and they will criticize you
for whatever you bring to the floor, you know? Yeah. So, yeah, that’s the,
let’s start there with being critical and then, yeah, like I just said, like,
yeah. Criticism or like being critical or like that, that that thing is like, it’s
a good thing in the scene, but also a bad thing because it can also cause a lot
of problems, of course. Cause people don’t like to be criticized and stuff like
that. I am one of those people too, whenever people, people always tell me
like, Gaby, you don’t like to be criticized and stuff like that. But I’ve
learned with the years that of course, like it’s good also to get criticism
because it actually, helped me, in the end when it comes to yeah, being a
little bit more, I think aware of things learning wise also, you know, yeah, I
think if it’s healthy, criticism, you know, and it’s come from a good place
from someone, please like take it, you know? Cause otherwise you’re never gonna
learn and you’re just gonna be stuck at one. You know, at one place in your
life. And you don’t want that. You wanna, you wanna like develop, you wanna
learn, you wanna grow. And I think, yeah, with the ballroom scene and getting
that criticism, it will help you also in real life where you feel like, oh, I
would never think that, I was, I dare to do this. But because of the ballroom
scene, you create this confident that. You’re like, oh, okay. Like now I dare
to go to that interview or something for that job, or I dare to apply for this,
or I dare to go to this dancing audition because I’m already being criticized
by the ballroom scene by the judges. And I’ve been chopped like for so many
times. Chopped means like you’re being eliminated from the competition. And it’s
really a fucked-up feeling. Sorry for my, sorry for my French.

Gian: No worries.

Gaby:  It’s a fucked up feeling to yeah.
That you’ll like, prepare yourself, ousted and everything. You come on and you
think you look good, or you’re like bugging and then you getting a chop and you
cannot like, go further through the battles. And then what, but. In the
beginning of your journey in the ballroom scene, it will feel like the worst
thing ever. But then later in life you will learn, like you’ll realize, okay,
you know, for a reason, these people did that to me because now I come back
even harder and stronger, and then you can even like gag them more. They feel
like, oh wow, remember that bitch that chopped me. You know, bitch, I’m back
here. I am showing the girls how it’s done. You know, that’s, that’s what you
wanna, that’s what’s gonna give you that confidence boost. So, I’ve seen it
with a lot of people happening. Even with myself, I think I’ve been like
chopped in my whole 10 years of ballroom, like maybe one or two times. That’s
like, okay. ’cause you have people who are chopped with for so many times, but
the people who’ve been chopped so many times and they come back, I respect them
so much because they dare to come back to the place where actually you feel,
you can feel a little bit ashamed, you know? Cause of course you’re doing
something and you’re not. You’re getting a chop, you’re like, oh my God, it’s
okay. Did I do bad? You know? But if you come back and you come back stronger
and you show them like, I’m not giving up, believe me, is gonna give you a very
confident boost in life. Definitely. So, yeah.

Gian: Nice. Can you, you said, you mentioned the realness. Can you
describe this as a category?

Gaby: Oh yeah. The realness category. Well, it’s the, basically, well,
the realness is really about passing in the real world, and when I say passing,
it’s about the realness of your identity or the as the. No, wait. Let me say it
differently. So, when it comes to the, the butch queens, Butch Queens is like
the gay men in the scene, back in the days, you know, whenever they had to
apply for jobs, or especially if you’re a Black gay man or a Latin gay man.It’s
a little bit harder for you. Now it’s easier, but back in the days, it was
harder for them to get jobs or anything, like a regular, like good job that
they like, feel stable in. So, then they have to like to turn down the gayness
basically to get that job, you know? Or when it comes to, you know, if you
wanna go into the military or something like, so there was like a very
masculine, toxic energy. Yeah, you cannot be super queer there and being, you
know, flamboyant because they’re gonna be like, No, we’re not, you’re not gonna
get the job. So that’s why they made this category where the gay men had to
actually learn how to switch it up and how to actually act straight. So that’s
the whole point of the realness categories.Are you real enough to go up to the
judges and make them believe that you are a straight man while you’re actually
gay? You know, that’s the realness for the gay men. And when it comes to, uh,
for the trans women, it’s that they, um, actually same thing. Well, trans
women, you know, they’re born, they’re born as, men and then they, you know,
go, they go through into a transition and become women. And then, yeah. Are
they, passing enough that they really look like cis women? You know? So can you
go up to the judges and make them believe that you are. Assist woman. Like, you
know, you’re just, that’s just how you were born, you know, that’s basically
for the trans women when it, when it comes to wellness. So, yeah, it’s really
about passing. Can you go? Cause also, it’s also a safety thing when for the
gay men, it’s maybe a little bit easier, but for the trans women, it’s harder
because whenever they go outside and they get like clocked, we call it clocked.
It means like they get like, Someone, someone can see that they were like born
a man. You know? It can really bring them in dangerous situations where they
can maybe be attacked like randomly just because people of religion, religions,
you know, they don’t accept it or whatever. Like people get killed like almost
every day, you know, for that shit. So, yeah, it’s important that. It’s maybe
like the, the category itself, I don’t really like it, love it. Cause I don’t
like judging people on their appearance. But I get why they made this category
up because it, it does sometimes help people elevate their look and, um, so
that, yeah, in the end, when they go into the real world, they, they have less
issues with, um, being harassed by people you know, or being judged. Yeah. So
yeah, it’s, it’s double. It’s double. Yeah. Yeah, it’s a, it’s also because a
lot of people think it, it’s also a little bit of a toxic category. I can
understand that. It can be a little bit toxic, but yeah, if you know the real
reason about it, why they made it, like back in the days, you know, like in the
eighties, nineties, you will understand that, okay, I care why wellness is
still a thing, you know.

Gian: Yeah. So, the role of critique is also historical in a sense?

Gaby: Yes, definitely. Yeah.

Gian: Okay. Definitely. Nice, nice. So, for
the next question, I’m interested in sort of in embodiment, we’re talking about
bodies, we’re talking about, you know, different categories and movement, and I
wonder how you. Personally use your body in your everyday life. Obviously, you
teach and you, you’re using it as a, as an instrument for that purpose, but
what other aspects of your body do you find, important for your work?

Gaby: Like what other body part? You mean like a body part or?

Gian: maybe body parts or aspects of your body. Right. So, do you embody
a certain character or a certain way of being when you’re doing whatever kind
of work you’re doing?

Gaby: Ah, okay. yes. Like I’m definitely embodying like. The Femme
queens, you know, like the Femme queens are the trans women of, of the scene
and they are the ones who started actually the style Vogue Femme. So yeah, a
lot of times, yeah, that’s some, that’s like for everyone actually that wants
to do Vogue Femme.The essence of the, of the style folk femme really comes from
the Femme queens. And every time when you do folk them, you should embody them.
You know, because they are the ones who started it. You need to respect them.
And those are the ones that learned. Actually, everyone in the scene how to
really get down when it comes to Vogue femme. So yeah, that’s definitely
something that I always keep in mind, you know, embodying the femme queens and,
yeah, just like owning the whole feminine side of yourself, you know what I
mean? We have masculine energy. We, we have feminine energy, but when it comes
to like folk and me dancing folk, I’m really like a person that. Yeah, I just,
that’s why I just love Vogue Femme so much. Cause I could just feel so like
freaking like feminine, you know, to like the fullest because it’s so like sexy
and like, you know, playing with your hair, playing with your arms, playing
with your hips, you know, like moving with your hips and stuff like that. So
yeah, in everyday life I will always, like, I think I will never, there will
never go, a day like, buy that I would not like, use my body.When it comes to
Vogue Femme. Cause Yeah, Vogue Fem is just something that, it’s like whenever
you start it and it’s in your body and it’s like, it’s like you, You literally
live and breathe it like every day. Like whenever you start and you, you love
it, you cannot get rid of it. Like I kept told myself so many times, oh, I’m so
dumb with Barbara. Oh, I’m so dumb with Vogue Femme. I wanna do something else.
And then I come, I see this video on Instagram, or I hear this, like, good
beat. You know, like I’m nice beat. And I’m like, Ooh. And you just your body
just starts moving, you know? And there’s something, even when it comes to, not
even like Vogue beats, it can be any type of beat where I feel like, oh, you
can actually like vogue on this and then you automatically just like start
moving and like in a Vogue Femme way. Yeah, it’s really weird. Like I’ve never
experienced that with any other dances. So, like, so intense. Like I love other
dance styles. I do a lot of other dance styles, besides Vogue femme and I love
them all, but Vogue femme. It’s like something you can, yeah, whenever you do
it, it’s really like something that keeps on, it will never go away. It just
follows you til you’re dead.

Gian: Nice. Nice.

Gaby:  But yeah, I think, yeah,
that way when it comes to body movements and, yeah.

Gian: Nice. So, so you mentioned, you embody the fem queens and sort of
these trans women, the foremothers, right. The sort of ancestors of the, of the
scene. Definitely. Um, can you, can you maybe put a finer point on this? How,
how does one do this in, in the scene? When you, when you think about this,
what is something that you do with your, with your practice personally, like in
your, in your classes, for example.

Gaby: How do I do that? Yeah. Studying, studying the clips on YouTube and
yeah, try to go as far as back as possible. Cause of course there’s a lot of,
footage that’s, there’s no, I mean, there’s a lot of moments in the scene that
wasn’t able, they weren’t able to record it because these people were also not
like the richest people. You know what I mean? So, back in the days, they
didn’t have all the money to maybe have a camera or something like that, you
know? So, from the moments where they did started recording, like the balls and
stuff like that, like going back there, like watching videos of like movies,
like there’s one very popular movie Paris is Burning, where you can get all the
education when it comes to, you know, what is it between, what is a Femme
queen? What is it? This, what is it? You have posts now posts on Netflix where
you can also see a lot of like education about Femme queens and everything and
how uh, they do it and yeah, like I think like when you get into the scene, you
will, and if you’re educated by the right people, they would always tell you
like, look these people up on YouTube, look their names up. Study the study,
these clips, and yeah, look at them. These are the prime examples of how you
should, what should guide you in the right way of becoming a great like Vogue
Femme. Yeah. And I think if you, if you do that, then yeah, that’s how you
start, I feel like. And then you also have a new generation, of course new
people who can also inspire you. And then I always tell my kids like, or my
students like, look at these people also. Or there’s also many times where I
see like, A similarity in how someone like Vogues and I’m like, use remind me
of this person. Well go check them out on YouTube. Look, look them up, check
them out. I feel like you have something similar, so maybe she can inspire you
to another level in your performance. You know? So yeah, in that way.

Gian: Great. So there, so you’re saying that there, you look at sort of
archival media and like looking at older clips and then you kind of bring that
from the past to the present. Yeah, there’s like an embodiment that you can
see, right? A visual sort of, sense of like clips on YouTube or other media
forums Paris is burning, and then they kind of incorporate that.

Gaby: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I, and I always say like, okay, don’t
like copy and paste, you know? Because yeah, you don’t wanna be a copy catch,
you wanna be original. So yeah, I really said, I tell them just like use it as
an inspiration, but still, uh, yeah, still move and. Do Vogue Femme in the way
that you feel like it comes out of your body. You know, so whenever you dance
or whenever you vogue, try to, yeah, try to do what comes out of your heart and
move with that, you know, and then take the videos and clips as an inspiration.
Like, oh, maybe I can, oh, I can try this trick, or I can try this little thing
that she did. But never like copy and paste and be like, oh, I’m just gonna
look like her, because yeah, that’s not, you wanna be original.

Gian: Okay. So, we talked a little bit about, what aspects are, like,
what you are trying to embody sort of in your personal practice and how you
inspire your students. What aspects of other people’s bodies, now this is maybe
more about the field, what aspects of other people’s bodies are important or
what things do you notice, that other people are doing, for example.

Gaby: Yeah, what do I, what do I notice? yeah I think when it comes to
like, okay, then let’s say like Vogue Femme, yeah. What do I notice? Like, I
don’t know. It just keeps elevating actually, I keep, I. Being surprised by
other people. Like, yeah, even till this day, like there’s a whole new, new
generation of kids that use their bodies and like use the stuff of them, but I
feel like, oh my God, it’s like, I thought, oh, I could do like crazy shit. But
then I see them like doing stuff and I’m like, wow, okay, this is really, yeah.
I like, I have also some new kids and I’m like looking at them and I’m like,
whoa, okay. Like I’m only 24 and I always feel like an old ass bitch. Cause
I’m, I’m like just, my kids are like, you know, the energy and the dedication
and the way they move and the new things they do that I’m like, Yeah, they, uh,
really inspire me also, you know, when it comes to moving their body or moving,
using their body parts and like, yeah, like in a way that I will never, uh,
that I’ll never think of. Like, oh, I can, I can, I’m like, looking at them
and, and like, okay, you know, I’ve never seen that, but cute. Okay. I’m like,
use that. You know? So, yeah, I think in that way, Yeah, if I answered your questions?

Gian: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Are there, are there any, let’s say specific
body types or body styles or dance styles or things that they’re incorporating
that you notice that are helping to push this new generation forward? Is there
any specific kind of body or way that people are using their body that you
notice as a trend?

Gaby: Yeah. I, no, no, not the specific ’cause I feel like. We have so
many different types of body, like bodies in ballroom. Yeah, cause we all, we
have like a whole category that’s dedicated to bodies. Literally, there’s
literally like a category that’s called body and yeah. That’s all about like, well,
let’s say like the category body is a little bit different because that’s
really like focused. Yeah, that’s focused on a certain type of body. Cause
that’s also in this description, you always read like, oh, this is for like the
thick women, or this is for the thick man. This is for the muscled man. For the
muscled women, this is for the fitness girls. The fitness men. You know, so
that’s like a lot of different, you know, more like skinnier bodies. Skinnier. So,
there’s a lot of different, types there. But when it comes to Vogue femme,
Specific? No, I think everyone has like something different. Everyone really
has something different. There’s no, there’s no like kind of body that it’s
like, oh, you can only this body can only like vogue. I’ve seen people that I’m
like gagged about who are a little, maybe like a little bit like bigger, you
know what I mean? But they still like bring it, like they bring it with the
energy and the movements and I’m like, wow. You know, I feel so inspired and
people. I don’t know, like, yeah, like so many different people, you know,
that, that, that do Vogue Fem and you, I would surprise you. Like, like you,
you come to a ball and then you will see like the cutest little, like, you know,
maybe like nerdy man or girl, you know, like just like standing there. And then
they go on the stage and then they kill it, you know? And then it’s like, wow,
like you would never expect that person or. Their body, you know what I mean?
They say it like that to bring that, that energy or that type of like rawness,
and then they like just kill it, you know? So yeah, I cannot really say like a
certain body or, you know. It’s a hard, yeah. Yeah.

Gian: No, that’s great. That’s cool. It’s, you know, talking about
openness and being able to, you know, let folks bring what they got, you know?
Yeah, cool, cool, cool. So, so the, I guess we, I have like kind of four
categories of questions we’re coming up on the last category, but, and we
talked a little bit about it, but this is more general, right? So, I’m, I’m
asking what developments do you see in the field, like in the scene, in the
community as a dance teacher, as an organizer, sort of more generally, what
developments are you seeing? Like what things you see coming up, maybe good or
bad. And what would you like to see? What do you, what would you wish for the
future to kind of leave maybe a, a legacy even, or, you know, what do you want
to continue to do moving forward? So, there’s two things.

Gaby: Okay.  So, what development
do I see already?

Gian: Mm-hmm.

Gaby: Yeah, that’s tje first question. Yeah. the fellow that I received
already is that I see development in. Let’s say like, uh, the media, like the
media, social media, just people in general being a little bit more. Yeah,
open-minded. Like, you know, I see balls like being thrown at some places where
I was like, oh, you never thought that they would like to be open to have a
ball there and to have all these queer people in their space, but they do. So
that’s, for me, that’s a development. I’m like, wow, okay. People are really
seeing the dance not as like, oh, these LGBT people. No. They see it like, oh
wow. It’s really actually a cool thing. Like what they do is very like, Like,
it’s not just a, it’s not, it’s not a joke. You know what I mean? Like, we
trained for this, we like, we studied this, like we train our bodies, we have
to be ready, we have to stretch, we have to do all of that other work to, yeah.
To walk these competitions, you know, walk these balls and then, Development in
the scene? I think just the development of like, the scene growing bigger. It
comes to like the Netherlands, you know, it’s already like a big scene in
America and there’s also a big scene in Paris, but here in Amsterdam our scene
is also actually getting Yeah, way bigger. Like I see development in like the,
the talent of the kids. People who I, you know, who I see as like, kids or
like, who were my kids becoming like house mothers. And I’m like, oh my God,
wow. Like people are really on that level of like, you know, taking other
people under their wing and yeah, educating them and helping them, yeah growing
into, I don’t know, maybe mothers or whatever they wanna become. So yeah, I see
a lot of development in that, and what I would like to see for the future, I
think, That’s a, that’s a really good question. What would I, what would I like
to see? I don’t even know. I just hope that yeah, like we get what we deserve. Like,
yeah. When it comes to like, I don’t know, TV wise or something, you know what
I mean? That the right people would like, take the scene, the ballroom scene
and put it in a light, like a positive light, just like how Pose did it, for example.
But then, yeah, in like different ways or like in. I don’t know, like in
dancing competitions where like, you know, you see so many like dancing
competitions and then it’s always like this one. Sometimes you have this one Voguing
group, but sometimes not even, you know what I mean? And I hope it will, that
will become a little bit more normal in the dancing world. That voguing also
was, is also really, uh, uh, is, uh, I said, uh, that people really will
acknowledge, uh, Voguing more as a real dance style. Yeah, that’s what I want to
say. I feel like, I think like dancing wise in the danciing world, People still
devo a little bit like, oh, just that queer dance or the LGBT dance. You know
what I mean? I’ll you Oh no, it’s not, it’s not a real dancing, but it really
is. It’s not just like a joke. It’s not just like, it’s like any other style,
like hip hop, like this, like, you know, like ballet it, like it, it has a lot
of elements and things you need to learn before you can actually just like do
it. You know, people think they do it in the clubs. Like I’m voguing, I’m like,
no, you’re not, you know, that’s not how, yeah. It’s much as like, uh, like,
oh, I’m just gonna like to do this, and then I’m, then I’m voguing. No, it’s
really like something you have to like, go to a class, learn like train. It’s a
dedication. Like it takes a year for you to master this dance. Even get
somewhere that you can say like, oh, now I’m on a level. Like, I thought also
in the beginning like, oh, I can just do this little dance, you know, I saw on
YouTube and I’m just gonna take some classes and I can do it. Look at me now,
10 years further, you know, I’m still learning, you know, so just like any
other dance, I just hope that people will like, take it more serious and yeah. And
it also like, yeah, like maybe. I don’t know, for like shows I feel like it’s
already happening a little bit because of, of course, like people like Beyonce
that take like such a, they’re such a, such a big platform and they put people
there, you know, like voguers there, and then people see like, oh wow, okay,
this is interesting. Like, what is this? So, I think people like that are
already helping with the development of like, Scene and you know, um, so that
people are of the scene, of the ballroom scene are being seen. But yeah, I just
hope more artists are gonna do that. And then other people are getting bookings
and stuff like that, just like how they want like, I don’t know, hip hop artists
or whatever. People for shows. I hope they’ll also do that for voguing, a
little bit more, and not only in the pride month, but also just like the whole
year.

Gian: Yeah, that’s, yeah. I see. So, what I hear is you say that there
is, acknowledgement, at least in certain spaces, where you’re surprised that,
you know, balls are being allowed, like queer people are allowed to take up
space in certain places that you weren’t necessarily seeing before, which is
nice, obviously also usually in pride month, which I’ve seen as well. But then
you would like to see also, more legitimacy, more, you know, support. More
funding. More visibility, all that.

Gaby: Definitely more funding, yes. Because other people now are doing it
for the height and then they want like a ball being thrown and then they give
you a budget and it’s like, You want all of this, but then you don’t wanna pay
for it, you know? Like it’s a lot of work organizing about, I just did my first
ball, a couple of weeks, like a month ago, and I’m telling you, it’s no joke.
Like it’s a lot of work out of dedication, a lot of organizing. That’s why I
call myself an organizer, right. Organizer right now, because I’ll make,

Gian: but speak on it. Yeah, it’s ’cause because, no, I, that’s, that’s
something that, especially also for, for me and for my politics and for all of
this, like paying people for their time and, and you know, recognizing that
energy that people invest is so important. So, I would love to hear more about
this organizing.

Gaby: Yeah. Yeah. Even that, like, it’s with everything. It’s with like,
or like, yeah, for example, interviews or something, you know what I mean? And
other people ask so much, uh, from people from ballroom, but then they, yeah,
they don’t wanna pay for it. They just want the, the fun part of it, you know,
like the, yeah. Like you’re putting like a monkey in a cage and, let them
dance. You know what I mean? That’s kind of what, how they see it, you know,
like, oh yeah, just dance for us and oh yeah, we gonna film it and use it for
our media and amazing. Oh yeah. But is there budget? Oh, no. This is so I’m
here like sweating my ass off. You know what I mean? I’m here organizing all
this shit and then you’re not even gonna pay me for it, or you’re gonna pay me
for it, but not the, the right money for it. Because if you would book someone
else for a big comp, like a big thing like this, you will give them their money
and then if we like Ballroom does it, then it’s like, oh yeah, no, this is the
budget and now we have no more budget. Well, we know you have more budget, so.
What is it? You, you wanna use us or are you really gonna pay us for our time
and hard work that we did for all these years?

Gian: Yes. And that’s something, I mean, it’s so important and especially
this is something that I see for folks who occupy marginalized positions or the
LGBT folks, people of color. All of this, like our expertise that we work for
for years is often devalued. And this shit ain’t free. Is what I’m saying. So,
like for this interview, you know, for other things like we need to pay people
for their time, and this is something that I personally, you know, find really
important. So, I’m really glad that you mentioned this. So, anybody listening?
Yeah, just, I’ve said this in other episodes, but I’m gonna repeat it. Pay
people for their time.

Gaby: Pay people for their time. Definitely. Yeah, definitely. I’m done
with it. I’m really done with it. Like I’ve experienced so many things. In my
whole like ballroom career where, yeah, I’m happy I have the right people
beside me and behind me that, um, always arranged that wherever I perform, I
get paid, you know? But I’ve also heard so many stories of, you know, my other
friends that, you know, they’re basically just being used because then they
would tell me like, oh, I have this really cute like fab gig. And I would be
like, oh, nice. How much are you getting paid? And then they’d be like, oh,
we’re not getting paid. It’s just for the name. And I’m like, what? That’s not
okay.

Gian: because exposure doesn’t pay rent.

Gaby: Exposure doesn’t pay rent. Exactly. Yeah. And it’s, it’s cute for
them. Actually. You are doing them a favor. It’s not the other way around. Not
because you’re dancing for, I don’t wanna say like just a big brand like Nike
or something, you know what I mean? Like, oh yeah. Because we have a big name
that’s good for you. Yes, and no because. It’s also good for you that I’m doing
this for you because people are gonna see us dancing in these clothes or like,
like for this brand. And they’re also gonna be like, oh wow, that’s really
interesting. Oh, we wanna buy something here, or we wanna go there. And then
you’re actually using me because I’m bringing people to your company because
they see the way I’m moving and you’re just there in the background not doing a
thing and not paying us. And then after the, after, after the show, you’re gonna
be like, okay, thank you. Bye. And I never hear from you because you don’t
really care about me. You just care about my body and the way I use it; you
know? Yeah, exactly. You don’t care about me personally about like after I go
home and I Exactly. I can pay my rent, or I can mm-hmm. You know,

Gian: Yeah, a hundred percent. It’s about establishing like longer
standing community support, which in these cases, especially in financial terms
means.

Gaby: Yeah, exactly. And we’re already like a minority, you know, when it
comes to the theme. So, you should definitely, like, if you’re interested and
you wanna help us and you want, want us to, you know, and you want us to grow
and you want us to give that platform to, you know, to show ourselves and also
pay for that. Yeah, a hundred percent. And still, because, you know, already,
like, it’s already a hard life, you know, for certain people. So, No. If you
really wanna be an ally, how always saying I’m an ally. I’m an ally. Well be an
ally and pay the people.

Gian: Yes, a hundred percent. Great. Okay, so this is, that was pretty
much the end of the like, formal questions and I think that’s a really good
message to kind of round out on. But I do want to offer you or to open the
space up and to say like, do you have anything else that you would like to add,
to say, to plug like any, upcoming performances or any. Classes are something
that you would like to put out there. Um, that’s one piece. And then the second
piece is, do you have anything that you would like to direct towards me? So,
questions, comments, concerns, angsst, any emotions, you know, anything like
that. So, you know, the plug or the putting out. And then also something for
me, if anything, right? One. It could be one. Both, neither. However, you feel.

Gaby: No, not really. I think, yeah, the. I’m happy we spoke about like
the whole paying, the whole paying people thing. That’s, that’s for me is like
the most, most important thing, but just for anyone, new kids, old kids, you
know, I feel like the older generation already knows what’s up, so we don’t
play anymore with that. We don’t let, we don’t, we don’t let people use us
anymore. But yeah, there’s always new people coming in and, I hope just new
people will be guided by the right people and also would not, will not be, yeah
used, you know, by people just because they’re great workers and stuff like
that. And yeah. For the rest, like, yeah. Maybe for new people. Yeah. When it
comes to classes, I actually have, injury right now, so I’m actually giving my
classes every, I’m starting in September again, but yeah. You can check out my
Instagram princess.vineyard and I will post definitely some classes. I don’t
know if I’m gonna give the classes, ’cause I’m gonna have my surgery on the
31st of August and after I’m gonna be recovering, but I want, I’m gonna be back
soon. It’s not a big surgery. It’s gonna be okay. Don’t worry guys. Okay. But yeah,
whenever I’m, I think I’ll be definitely back end of September. Yeah. Okay. I
think I will be recovering soon. So, yeah. Whenever.

Gian: We’ll put your, we’ll put your socials and any other link under
the, under this, on the website. So, we’ll have Okay. Link to your Insta and
stuff or anything else you might wanna add later, you know? Yeah, yeah,

Gaby: Yeah, yeah. Perfect. Yeah, so if you can just check it out there, I
would definitely post any upcoming, I don’t know if there’s any upcoming balls.
Cause was like a lot of balls like in the summer and now we’re going a little
bit more towards the winter, so it’s gonna be a chill, but yeah, definitely
follow my socials for anything that’s like. When it comes to classes or stuff
like that, I would definitely post it. There’s also some classes in Rotterdam You
can check out some of the classes in. Then hey, you can just look it up on
Instagram also. I’ll send you all the names of all the Instagram links and
stuff like that. Okay. But yeah, definitely like for people listening, check it
out if you’re interested. Be respectful. Do some education before you go to the
classes. Don’t just go there and be like, oh, they’re gonna teach me
everything. No, do your research. We’re not here to teach you everything. We
are here to teach you some stuff, but please do your own research also. That
will be nice.

Gian: Great. Cool. Alright, well thank you so much for your time and,
thank you for No problem, problem.

Gaby: Thanks for asking.

Gian:  Of course, of course. We
really, I really appreciate having you. Um, and so for everybody listening, uh,
yeah, thanks for paying attention. Please, uh, comment, share, engage with the
media and, um, stay critical.

Gaby: Thank you guys. Yeah.

 

 

With Kanoelani Patterson, @thepowerliftingsocialworker on Instagram, contributor to Deconstructing the Fitness industrial Complex

Gian: Hey everyone. I’m Gian. I am a postdoctoral researcher at the
Amsterdam School of Communication Research. And today I am joined by Kanoelani Patterson,
who is a licensed master social worker, a therapist and powerlifter. She has
written on the embodied experience of black women, in the published anthology
decolonizing the fitness industrial complex. Please welcome me in joining Kanoelani.
 Hey, what’s up? Hey, how are you? I’m
doing great. How are you?

Kanoelani: I am good.

Gian: Nice, nice. So, I’m really excited to talk to you today. Sorry,
excuse me. Uh, I just, you know, really want to dive in and like get your, get
your perspective on all the stuff that we talk about here at, uh, the Critical
Beings Podcast.So basically, yeah. Is there anything before we begin that you’d
like to add to your introduction? A little bit more about yourself, about your
work, about what you do, what you find important? I’m all ears.

Kanoelani: I think like it’s really important, like. The main, like humans
that I work with are children. I have like, I have a small caseload of adults, just
like a handful. But most of, most of the people that I work with are children
and families. That’s actually really important to me, because I feel like that
is the best part, and the best point to start to like work on ourselves is like
when we’re children and so, I get to deal with a lot of children from, a lot of
different, like places in life. Teens, little guy, little kids, Just, you know,
and all dealing with different things. And so I’m just kind of like lucky to be
like their person that they talk to and we just talk to a vast talk, talk to
about like a vast number of things. You know, and work through their different
issues.

Gian: Nice. Yeah, that’s really, that’s, that’s really cool. So when
working with young kids and sort of kids of different ages, I mean, just to get
right into the theme of the podcast, how does embodiment play a role? What are
the, are you doing anything in terms of, cause I mean, I know obviously when we
think of therapists, we think of like psychology and all that, but, um, you
know, bodies are super important and super big. How does that manifest in your
work?

Kanoelani: I think it shows up a lot, especially from my youngest client
clients that are like five to even adults. You see how bodies and like body
image, body size, as like as a fat therapist, like you just, you, you just see
it in so many different ways. The ideas of how, how children look and how
people will. Talk about them. How other children will say things like someone
calling them fat, upsets them. And so that gives me a chance as someone who
self-identifies as fat, gives me a chance to kind of like, help them dig into
like why that hurtful, and what that means to them. Sometimes people think
like, well, this is a five-year-old. Like, it’s like, no, like the
five-year-old,  we have now are
completely different. They are, they like, they have like full sentences, and
they will tell you how they feel. They will tell you what they don’t like. So
it, it’s great like, and again, even then with teens, of course it’s even
broader, because they’re getting older.And so, it gives me a chance to like,
Provide education. And then also just talk about, you know, themselves and like
how this is affecting like their mental health.

Gian: Yeah, that’s, so the one point that you brought out that I really
just would love to speak more about is this notion of fat identify. Can you say
a little bit about that? That’s really interesting.

Kanoelani: I think, like for a long time, for a lot of folks who are, who are
fat or plus-sized people, for a lot of us, a lot of us grew up, at least I did.
I am pretty much; I like to say like I’m a lifelong fat person. I’m somebody
who was a fat child and I’m a fat adult. And so, growing up, like some, the,
the way that fatness was kind of like, it usually was like, hold at me in
insults, like this negative thing, but I think within the last little while,
um, fat activists have reclaimed that word to be a neutral descriptor. Like it
just describes, it describes what I look like, but it doesn’t exactly. Describe
like anything else. It doesn’t describe like what I feel inside, but it kind of
can explain a lot of other things, like, like the discrimination that I’ve
faced and different things like that.

Gian: Yeah. And then it’s not like a moral value of like who you are as a
person.

Kanoelani: Not at all. Yeah. It’s not a good or a bad, it just is.

Gian: Yeah, no, I get that. I’m actually, I’m really interested in like
fat studies and a lot of these things I’ve, I just finished reading a book,
called, fearing the Fat Body.

Kanoelani: yes

Gian: Super, super interesting.

Kanoelani: Yes, Deshaun is absolutely amazing.That’s one of my favorite
books.,

Gian: Yes, yes.

Kanoelani: Deshaun Harrison is absolutely amazing.

 Gian: Yes, yes, yes. Exactly. So they, I
actually just listened to a podcast that my friend edited, shut up Kyle,
Deshaun was on this, this, the podcast and talk about talking about their book.
So, we, yeah, so.

Kanoelani:  Yeah, they’re amazing.

Gian: Yeah, they’re super, super wonderful. So, yeah, but going back to,
I mean, yes, fat critical fatness and all of these things, and bringing in this
idea of being critical. The, the theme of the podcast is kind of, we’re talking
about embodiment, we’re talking about critical, and I think it’s super
important to call into question, right? Like, why are we taught. You know that
fat is bad, that, you know, it means x, y, z about us. What do you, what are
you, seeing in your, in your work as a, as a therapist maybe, but also in sort
of other work that you do, other spaces that you exist? Where does that, where
does, like, what do you think, um, explains that phenomenon?

Kanoelani: I think, it, you know, from what we’ve seen, and what a lot of,
Activists and just different people writing, 
writing and, and from like fat studies, like people talk about how like
this started, like with like with white supremacy and with, you know, with the
way that, you know, bodies were being picked apart and like they hadn’t been
before. You know, when enslaved people got to this continent, and also
indigenous bodies being here already, just all of a sudden, like their bodies
not being enough, and all of a sudden something’s wrong with them or they’re
seen as being like these, quote unquote like monsters or savages, because their
bodies are different. And so, now what’s happened is that’s kind of like
permeated like the, the construct of not just American like sensibilities, but
just it’s worldwide. Anti-fat is worldwide. so and, and so it was like
anti-blackness and white supremacy, so because of that, now what you’re, what
we see is, you know, I talk about how, how a lot of it starts in our families,
right?And like, how we’re raised and stuff, and at least for me, that’s where
it started. You know, I had no sense that that was a bad thing, until I did,
until I started gaining weight. Like, I didn’t know there was anything wrong
with it until someone put a value on it. And like, until they either said
something was wrong or they told me that I needed to lose it, you know, that
let me know, oh, there must be something wrong with this or like the way I was
being treated, I was like, there’s something wrong with me. You know, not that
there was something wrong with these people, but it, it was me. There was
something wrong with me. So, I think a lot, for a lot of people, it starts off
usually at home. You know, beyond, historical start of like anti-fat and stuff
like that, it starts at home for most people.

Gian: Yeah, but it’s also, I mean, so I love that link that you make
between this, these historical, right? We talk about the black body; we talk
about the indigenous body as though it’s this monstrous other and then
constructed vis-a-vis the sort of Anglo or American or European white self.

Kanoelani: Um, mm-hmm

Gian: And that is per, as you say, it’s global.I live in, I live in the
Netherlands. I’ve lived in a, a few other countries as well. And like I, we, I
see these things that exist independently of the US American, you know?

Kanoelani: Mm-hmm.

Gian: Context, um, well, maybe not fully independently, but you know,
they’re not, it is not as though everything that is exists in the US maps out
one-to-one to the context here.

Kanoelani: That’s right.

Gian: But at the same time, it’s like, oops, almost done. It’s like we,
we we’re over here. You know? So, exactly. So, so I see that, but then I also
think like, okay, so how do we relate to one another? And I’m actually
interested also in your perspective on this as well, like, How do we, for
example, like, if I’m thinking about role models or colleagues or, you know,
folks that I want to be in community with that share my various identities, how
does that look like, look like for you are, how do you identify or not right
with the people that do the kind of work that you do?

Kanoelani: It can be difficult at times, because a lot of times, I talk about,
I talk to other, other fab folks that I’m friends with and in community with.
We talk about this all the time, like sometimes, like especially like, so, so
much stuff is online, right? Like we are like
social media in community with a lot of people. And so, it’s like from
someone’s bio, like you might feel like, okay, they’re like, They’re like on my
level. And then you find out later that maybe they really aren’t. So, so a lot
of times, a lot of times it’s really in like the questioning, right? In the
questions that we ask people about like their politics because like whether we
like it or not, someone’s politics, like that’s, it’s not just the politic
isn’t just personal, right? It’s also. It affects us. Um, it affects a lot of
us every day. So, what somebody believes and what they think and stuff like
that matters. And to like critically, like think about why you think the way
that you do and how that thinking affects the way you treat other people.

Gian: Yeah, I think, I think also, you know, and this goes back to, to
the podcast, so I’m, I’m thinking about like, so we, the way that we think, but
also the way that we be, right, the way that we like yes.You know, out here
exist in the world because like. I have, I’ve met so many people that like, or
at least in, in the academic sphere, you meet so many people that are wonderful
thinkers, wonderful. You know, philosophy, sociology, you know, anthropology,
all that. And then it’s like, okay, but you’re out here being anti-black, or
you’re out here being Anti-fat.

Kanoelani: Yes.

Gian:  Or you’re out here being,
you know, homophobic or transphobic or whatever. And I’m like, okay, but these
two things, like the math ain’t math in, you know, so I’m like, so, so that’s,
it’s, it’s, I mean, it’s reassuring, but also. Disappointing to hear that you,
you see that as well. And you mentioned something also in the questioning, so
can maybe, can you, can you talk a bit, a little bit about more, maybe provide
an example, I don’t know, you don’t need to put nobody out on blast, but like,
you know, say something about like, okay, so how does it look like when you
encounter a bio and then, oops, that person might not be.

Kanoelani: What I was thinking. Yeah. I mean, because a lot of times people
say, you know how people are like, I am, you know, they’ll have like Black
Lives Matter and all this other like stuff, and you’d be like, maybe. But it
usually shows up in, just, even in the way people make comments and stuff like
that, and you’re like, wait a minute, it’s what you just said. Like you, these
people that like have these, like they, they can think, you know, they, they
have these just amazing minds. But then they’re just really like, they have
just this raggedy way of like, talking about people, like, just because
somebody looks different than them or someone loves differently than them. And
so it usually comes out like, I mean, cause it’s happened to me before, like it
usually comes out really randomly. And I’m one of those people, like, when I
find things like that out, like I can’t just, like, I’m not the kind of person
that can let stuff go. So, like, usually I have to like separate myself from
those people. Because I can’t, like, I can’t have people like that around me. That’s
like that kind of negative energy. I also don’t want to be responsible for
having those kind of people with. With not just myself, but other people that
might be negatively impacted by like their actions and stuff like that.

Gian: Hmm, yeah. That’s real.

Kanoelani: because I care about people enough not
to wanna do that.

Gian: Yeah, it’s difficult to kind of get that key to, you know, cordon
off that energy, but I’m wondering where do you think this raggedness comes
from? I’m like, you loud, like, where’s the, where’s the?

Kanoelani: White supremacy, white supremacy.

Gian: I mean, you said it. We were all thinking it, so, you know. Okay.
Okay. I see you. So, All right. I mean, it is what it is. Like we could just
call it. I mean, that’s that. Yeah. So, I have, so like, I have like all these
questions, but like really, you know, when we talk about these kind of things
like. Because one of the things that I really want to, one of the, one of the
messages that I want have out here on this podcast is not so much like, oh, you
know, the critical thinking and the philosophy and the, this, that, and the
other, but I do want to target the Raggedness and be like, yo, like there’s
another way to approach that.To call people out. Yeah, call people in or to be
definitely, you know, careful with it, but also like coming from a sense of
community care. Do you find, is that something that you. Would like to try, or
try to do or think is, you know, what, how do you feel about that?

Kanoelani: Yeah. And definitely like, there have been
many times when I’ve been able to do that with people.

Gian: Okay.

Kanoelani: what I always find is like, it’s like they’re willing to do it through.
Like, our people that double down and stuff like that, I already know. Maybe I
can’t do that with them, but I think a, a big thing for me is like, especially
when we talk about community, Is like making amends like, and like to the
people, like they’ve harmed in like the things they’ve said, you know, or the,
or their actions.You know, and really just find to have like that restorative
type of like, justice with the people that they’ve harmed, because like I feel
like a lot of times that. Does a lot of good in showing that, you know, you’re
not just a quote -quote ally, but you’re like a comrade in this fight, right?
Like, you want to change, you know? And, and we know people who don’t want to
change because like I said, they double down and they just don’t want to be
wrong. But there are people who, you know, really want to know better.

Gian: For sure, for sure. And for me, like a comrade, like I love that
language because a comrade isn’t somebody that’s going to like sit there and be
like, oh, you know, everybody has their opinions. And no, no, no, no. A comrade
is gonna be okay with being like, oh shit, I fucked up. You know? Yes. A
comrade is gonna be like, oh, let me, you know, make a, let me throw some coins
at you. Let me make amends, let me do something. And another thing that I
wanted to say as well is this idea of community is so important for me because
like if, for example, you know, somebody does something messed up to somebody
else, like, you know, some person A is over here, you know, acting out of
pocket and then you over, you say, okay, like, look, that was wrong to that
person. And they double down and they don’t change and they don’t, you know, it
doesn’t, it they, it falls on deaf ears. I feel like it’s still necessarily
important to say that. Because you show that mess is not okay. Like none of
that is acceptable.

Kanoelani: Definitely.

Gian: And I think, you know, sometimes we forget that like, you know, our
communication isn’t in a bubble, and we exist relationally. And to say like,
oh, you know, this is not what we do here. Like, you might be able to say that,
but there will be repercussions for your actions. And you kind of show like the
other people who are watching or listening or expect, you know, expect you to
say something, you don’t wanna let them down.  I feel like that also for me at least, if that
ever happens, like if I’m in a classroom and a student says something like
raggedy, I’m like, wait, because there’s probably somebody else in this room
that doesn’t feel comfortable speaking up. So, let’s not, let’s, let’s not do
that. You know what I’m saying?

Kanoelani: Yeah. I mean, and, and I’ve most definitely, I have, I’ve done it
in therapy sessions.I’ve done it to parents before, like the thing about
knowing me is like I am, while I have a filter, I do not take any shit and
because I don’t take any shit, I also, that also transfers over to my therapy
work too, because I’m very like in your face and I’m very like, no, that’s not
okay. Like you. Like, ’cause especially with kids, like they will say all the
things to upset somebody. I’m like, mm, no. That’s not okay to talk about your
mom. Like that. Like you, like you are allowed to have your feelings, but you
need to, you need to find a different way to say that because that was
disrespectful.

Gian: That’s real. So, I’m interested in, you know, this idea of not
having a filter. Like voicing, you know, having, being out there when I ask
all, all the guests this question, and I love everybody’s response. They’re
always so interesting and unique. When I say the word critical, what comes to
mind to you? What do you think Critical? What, what is critical to you?

Kanoelani: I think “critical” can mean I think a, a couple different things.
Like, I think like when I think of critically, it’s like important, like, that
something is really important, and then I think of something like critical
thinking. And I, when I think about like that, in that aspect, it’s like you’re
really like zoning in on like the really important things about something. And,
you know, not necessarily picking it apart, but like you’re really getting to
the heart of the matter.

Gian: Yeah, yeah, no, definitely. I mean, everybody, like I said, people,
we have the idea of critical and some people there think there’s like a negative
connotation and of course, you know, to them, and it can be, yeah. And that’s totally legit, right? Like everybody,
like the, the thing about communication and the thing about different words is
that they mean different things of different people. So, I love that, but when
I say so, and when I say like critical and, uh, when I say to practice
critique, then what does that mean to you?

Kanoelani: So, critiquing, right, We’re looking at something or like we just
talked about like people’s actions or something of, or somebody, something that
somebody said, and we are just kind of delving in or we’re digging in and we’re
looking at it and what it, what it’s like. Its meaning is, and then also like
the, the pros and the cons, like the good parts of this, but also where there
may need to be some changes, or like they could have done this better. And I
think that’s where it’s hard for some people is like taking that like type of
like critique, is like hearing any negatives about something that they’ve done.

Gian: Yeah. And do you, so you already talked a little bit about, when
you practice critique or when you, you know, are critical maybe towards the
way, uh, your patients express their emotions. But are there any other
instances that you can think of where you are more critical or less critical in
your work?

Kanoelani: I would definitely say I would, I would definitely say I am very
critical in just, I mean, obviously I’m very critical in the way that I am, you
know, critiquing like my clients and stuff like that. And not necessarily their
emotions, but sometimes just the way they say things, and families really. I
think it’s a really big thing with families. Cause a lot of people don’t take,
like I said, they don’t take criticism well. Especially kids, but their
families don’t either. Being told that you’re, you know, dealing with your
child in the wrong way and it’s upsetting them, a lot of parents don’t handle
that very well.Just so just kind of like learning how to like manage that in a
way. Um, that’s like coming from a place of love and empathy. That’s how I like
to use like critique is like with always, with like compassion and with love
and never necessarily making people feel bad, but just so that they can see,
like, have some perspective.

Gian: Yeah. I mean, ’cause we can, we can critique in a caring sense,
there’s like also a critical

Kanoelani: Yeah, A kind way.

Gian: Yeah, yeah. Kindness. A critical care, you know, and I think also,
especially in like maybe therapy sessions or in my case educational settings,
like I teach a lot and when I’m, when I’m teaching, I always try to think like,
okay, so how do I critique this in such a way that the person is better
afterwards, or if they, if they’re more, if they’re stronger at their goal or
what they’re trying to do. Cause it’s like, I see that they wanna do something,
but they’re not necessarily getting at it. So the critique is a tool to, to use
that or to, to to, to go towards that.

Kanoelani: Yeah, exactly.

Gian: Yeah. Nice. Nice. So, uh, when we talk about critique towards
others, are there, are there ever times when you might be sort of self-critical
or critical towards yourself or something that you might experience? All the
time. All the time. Okay. Let’s talk about all the time.

Kanoelani: Um, I’m a, um, I’m definitely a, I am somebody that is, I will
always tell people like I’m hardest on myself. Like even down to like after
like, Therapy sessions. Like I’m always asking myself like, you know, like,
could I have done better? And like I always, and I’ve been like that.  I’ve actually, I’ve always been like that.
I’ve always wanting to know like how I can do something better, how I can
improve, So, yeah, I’m very self-critical. That’s both a negative and a
positive. A positive because like it allows me, some space for growth, so that,
that I’m not stagnant. So that’s a good thing, but bad in that it can
definitely, affect me negatively, when I’m too critical about myself.

Gian: How do you, so I, I like, you know, the idea of growth and being,
you know, true or sort of overly critical. How do you strike a balance with
that?

Kanoelani: It’s difficult. I think balance in life in general is difficult, but
I think like when, I always like to think like, what? Like, you know, I think
it’s kind of like the same as doctors. Like for us it’s hard for like
therapists and things like that for, for people that are in like a profession
that you deal with people all the time. It’s hard for us a lot of the times to
remember the words that we tell our people. Like the things that I tell my
clients, like it’s hard for me to remember that stuff for myself. So sometimes
I have to step back and say like, what do you tell your clients? Like, like
this self-talk, this very critical self-talk that you’re giving yourself. Is
this with kindness? Are you being kind to yourself? Are you loving yourself in
the things that you’re saying about yourself? Are you giving yourself
compassion? Because if it’s no to any of those things, then. This is, this isn’t,
we’re not being, this is being over or being overly critical and it’s not
healthy.

Gian: Yeah,  it’s this, I, I feel
like I, there’s a lot of points of synergy right there for me as well, because
I often, I often think about the critique that I give my students, for example,
and then the critique that I look at for when I, for example, when I’m reading
my papers or whatever, and I think about like, am I rather than like thinking
about this in a, you know, cerebral way? Am I feeling it or am I being it? Am I
being, am I integrating the kind of response that I would like to, you know, you
know, so I’m just kind of like, okay, so there’s a lot. Yeah. There’s a lot
that resonates with what you’re saying. And I think, I think also, you know,
trying to get, you know, when we internalize it, it becomes part of our bodies,
I think, right? Like if we, if carry it becomes a, a, a gut reaction to, rather
than go to the, the place of like, oh, you’re not good enough, or oh you know,
All that negative self-talk. If it, if it becomes embodied, then it’s like, oh,
this is the baseline for how I talk to myself or how I exist in the world. It’s
not so much thinking, it’s not, you know, responding in a certain way because
it’s just like, oh, I’m comfortable and this is how I exist in the world. That’s
what I, that’s where I’m, what I got from what you were saying, so, exactly.
Nice. Cool, cool, cool. So, I wanna go to, the place of embodiment for a little
bit because I’m really curious about, like, for example, how you as a
self-identified fat person, how, you know, as a black woman, you describe like
your body in your everyday life. Like not even in the work, but also how does,
like, how do all of these identity markers impact you? I’m really curious to
hear about this.

Kanoelani: I think it affects every, like, every area in my life. You know,
from the personal to the professional, there are many a statistic that talks
about how, in a lot of fat studies people have talked about how being fat kept
them from getting jobs, from getting housing, you know, and just the level and
just adequate medical care. And so, when you, obviously I can’t, I don’t just
exist as, as fat or as black or as a woman, I do that all at once, right? So,
you know, so that means like not only like if I go to with a doctor, not only
do I, am I on the receiving end of medical racism, but also like weight stigma
and, anti-fat, from doctors. And I’ve been enduring that since I was a child. So
just experiencing all those things. It’s, it’s like, it’s, it’s a lot to take,
job wise, like I think. This is where like we talk about privilege and stuff
like that being an educated person, I think that has helped me to not, um, feel
like I necessarily lost jobs because I was fat.Now I very much probably could
have lost a job because I was black. because we know that happens, but having
the privilege of being educated, and having degrees. And then, being someone
that has at least one license. Like I don’t have my clinical license, but you
know, I’m, I’m at least at a master’s level in social work. So that puts me at
another level, again, privilege, where somebody who is less educated than me,
also existing in a fat body, and black and a woman or trans or, gay or what
have you, you know, they may experience, even worse because they don’t have the
privilege of the education that I do.

Gian: I think it’s really important, to yeah, to remember these
intersections and to think about like, okay, so you have, you know, the social
class, but then we also have, race, we have gender, and I mean, speaking about,
for example, medical stigma. I do, I really like that you highlighted this
point that you know, women, in general are given less pay medication or give
are, are not heard. And then if you compound black women spec specifically,
they’re also, you know, have, higher rates of, dying in childbirth, you know,
litany of medical, you know, documented medical racism and mortality. And then
you add anti-fat on this where a lot of your legitimate health concerns that
are completely unrelated to your weight are sort of given the, oh, well you
need to lose weight kind of thing. It’s like exactly. All of these things, they
compound on one another. So, we often talk about intersectionality as though
it’s you know, like I. Plus points, like, oh, this person is black and gay and
trans, so they are plus 10, but it’s not like that.

Kanoelani: Yeah.

Gian: It’s much more complex than that. And nevertheless, there are
layers that stack up in a, in certain ways. Right. Yeah. So, it’s difficult and
I completely understand, you know, or not completely, but I, I can kind of, I
can see, you know, where, where you’re coming from when you mention these
things. Yeah. Yeah. So, what, in relation to that, what sort of aspects of your
body, you know, you mentioned it a little bit in terms of in terms of work and
in terms of, of personal, but what kind of aspects of your body do you find it
like important for others? Right? Like when you, when you know, for example,
you have clients or you have employers, or you have, you know, folks in your
personal life, what kind of aspects do you think, make a difference as it were?

Kanoelani: I think like, the fact that like I continue to show up, like I do
not let, and I haven’t let much of anything stop me. Like I show up very
unapologetically as myself, from the way that I dress at times to my
personality. I, and if you ask anybody, they’re like, you always have something
to say. I always have something to say.I question everything. I always got a
question. That’s just my, that’s my nature. I always wanna know why, why are we
doing this? and so like, I think just that, because a lot of times. And again,
As a lifelong fat person, I’m 41, and as somebody who, for parts of my life,
like I talk about how I didn’t feel like I was really living my life like I
was, like, I was kind of like just there. But I wasn’t really experiencing my life
because I kind of let like this, stuff was internalized, like the internalized
anti-fatness and the way that I saw myself kind of kept me from living the
fullness of my life that I could, because it’s this idea of just constantly
apologizing for being who I am instead of just showing up and saying like,
well, if you don’t like it, just fuck you. And so now I’m at the, I’m at a
better part of my life where I’m just showing up, and I think sometimes, like
that’s half the battle is just showing up regardless. Showing up for my
clients, showing up for myself, in my body, not making apologies, not
explaining to people. Why I look the way that I do, you know? And people always
wonder like, well, how do you deal with that? With clients? Especially, this
happens a lot with like littler clients, like, you know, cause the littler ones
will, like, they’ll hug you and they’ll be like, why do you feel this way? Why
do you look this way? Like, it’s not anti-fat. It’s curious like, They’re
little and so they’re curious. And so, what I always tell people is like you
can answer their questions. Like, you know, it gives you a perfect opportunity
to explain to them that all bodies look different. And you know, it gives you.

From
this part, there was a technology issue.

Gian: Okay, sorry. Technical difficulty. So, as you were saying, you can
answer questions if someone comes up to you and ask questions.

          
Back to normal.

Kanoelani: Yeah, you can. It gives you an opportunity to really like to
explain to them how all bodies are different, and you can really educate them
on, on bodies and, and, and that. You know that not all bodies look the same. And
so, you can talk to them about body diversity and you can also tell them like,
you know, with the littler ones kind of harder to explain, but that like, you
know, that maybe we shouldn’t talk about other people’s bodies because that
might hurt some people’s feelings. So, like, it just gives you a chance to kind
of educate. And to also, just get that message out that like, about body
diversity. And so I always love that. I love when I get comments like that. I
know some people like, it embarrasses them. It doesn’t embarrass me. I always
just think it’s cute and like we talk about it, and we move on and we go play.

Gian: Yeah. And it’s, it’s nice also to kind of bring up this idea, but
it’s not, or like, Antifa or anti-blackness are not like learned behaviors.
It’s not like, oh, that, you know, student or children or you know, little ones
come out of the womb and they’re like, oh, I hate this per, or I dislike this
person because X, Y, Z. It’s like we are socialized in a lot of these ways to

 Kanoelani: yes.

Gian:  Fear or hate, uh, these
things, right? So, yeah. But, so, okay, so we talk, so we’re talking a little
bit about, you know, bodies, in your field of work. do you notice, for example,
an so the bodies of other people in your field, so let’s say social work, for
now, do you notice that, other, aspects that might make a difference?

Kanoelani: I think like, I think in, definitely in, in my work, What I’m, what
I’m noticing right now is, there’s always this push, for, like diet culture and
stuff like that. And so I’m even noticing it at least at my level. Now I don’t
work for the state, but what I’ve worked for the state government before, what
that meant was like, you know, you know, talking about like. Weighing children
and things like that. And so those are things that I do not like, and I don’t
agree with, because many studies have proven that, it’s very harmful to children,
It’s harmful to people, and a lot of times that’s when people start developing
eating disorders and things like that. So, what I’m noticing, When I worked for
the state government, that was the, the big thing, this idea of like health, and
these like health numbers and stuff like that. And so instead of kind of like,
really thinking about the things that affect people’s health, like the social
determinants of health thing, things like someone that’s living in poverty, somebody
who’s not getting adequate nutrition. Because they are living in poverty, you
know, climate change, pollution. I mean, there’s just so racism. Like, there’s
just so many things that, I think are getting left out. And so, like in my
work, Like while I acknowledge those things, um, I don’t feel like everyone
else is, I feel like there’s a lot of work that still needs to be done, to
really bring about the kind of change that, um, would actually be really
helpful for people and to really like change people’s lives.

Gian: Yeah, I mean, you, you, you say it right? Like the, the, if
somebody is living in a food desert, they’re not going to be able to adequately
feed themselves, right?

Kanoelani: No.

Gian: And so it’s, it’s, it’s, we can weigh them, we can, you know,
ascribe um, individual solutions to structural problems all we want, but the
structures are still gonna be there.So, I think

Kanoelani: that’s that’s right.

Gian: Yeah. I mean, it’s, it’s very important to keep that in mind. So,
when you, when you say you acknowledge this in your work, how does that
manifest in a practical way? What does that, what does that look like, for
example, in a session or with, with parents or with clients? What,

Kanoelani: So, I have found a way that like most of my families are like, right
now most of my clients are all like Medicaid clients, so a lot of my clients are
lower income people, anyways, but one sec.

Gian: So, for, for those of us who are, for those folks who don’t know
the US um, insurance system, can you explain what Medicaid is?

Kanoelani: Yes. Um, so Medicaid is a lot of times you’ll see people who are,
who are. Lower income or who, or people who don’t, maybe they can’t work, maybe
they’re disabled.So, Medicaid just helps to pay for those things that, the
insurance that helps to pay for their medical care, their dental care, and
things like that. Or things like mental health. So I have a lot of clients,
like that are either. Have some kind of disability or their, um, their lower
income. And so because of that some people like to make certain assumptions. I
don’t, I like to ask questions. Like I said earlier, and a lot I’ve, I’ve been
able to, I think in, in therapy, I think like. You learn how to like really
build relationships with people. So, I am really big on building relationships
with my families, so that they’re comfortable with telling me like, we’re
really struggling right now.You know, like, I just lost my job or, you know,
like, or like them being able to feel comfortable to ask me like, do you know
of any food banks that can help us out? Do you know any places? because some
people, if they don’t feel safe enough, they may not ask you. Like if they’re
having a hard time financially and they need more access to food or like they
just lost their house, like they need, you know, shelters or whatever. So,
that’s where being a social worker is helpful. Cause I do have that, that part
as well. But just being able to like, again, move with compassion and have that
relationship with them already. That they can tell me like, what’s going on.
Because usually sometimes if the parents don’t say anything, ’cause maybe they
feel ashamed, which they shouldn’t be ashamed, life really just happens. Life
just be life and sometimes, so sometimes like the kids will tell me though,
like I’ll hear from them. They’ll tell me like, what’s going on? and you know,
that gives me an opportunity to. You know, if I have resources to point people
toward, then I can get them into those resources. So that like they can maybe
get a little bit more help, but yeah, so that’s where I think we see it the
most.

Gian: Okay. Yeah, that’s real. I mean, yeah, like you said, life, be life
in. I just do. So, this is, so that was, that was, I, so I’m interested. Yeah,
like you were talking about, you know, how, what the, what that might look like
for, you know, clients in the field, in your practice and, and that kind of
thing. So, I’m, I’m wondering, what developments do you see in the field and
whatever the, whatever the field means to you. Right. And then what would you
like to see? So, is it kind of growing in a direction that you think it should
or is there some sort of changes you would make or are you completely cool with
it as it is? I’m guessing that’s not the case, but you know,

Kanoelani: I think like what we’re, at least in the US what we’re seeing is
this push, like, I think away from, you know, when we talk about like critical
race theory and stuff like that. So, what we’re noticing now is this push away
from, you know, all these important victims. And like the, the talk about like
the social, determinants of health. I think there’s like, I feel like there’s a
push away from those things and now it’s kind of, this idea that. I feel like
people we’re going back to just like this bootstrapping idea that people can
just pull themselves up. You know that race does not play a part in anything
now. I mean, with our recent, Supreme Court decision with affirmative action,
so we’re kind of noticing this downturn in a lot of things.  So, for someone like me, like of course,
that’s a negative thing because for a lot of, a lot of my families, like those
things are so important to them. And like these are, especially for these kids,
like for some of them, this helps them have the possibility of going into
college going to college, going to. different trade schools, if that’s
important to them. And it impacts their like every day, and then some of them,
especially living in, some of them live in more rural communities.And
especially for like black and brown kids living in these rural communities,
being on the receiving end of racism, that’s like never acknowledged and
nothing is ever done about it. So, like those are things that are important.
Like I would, those are the things I’d like to see us doing things about, you
know, things like bullying, things like, again, racism. Us being able to talk
about those things. You know, us actually being able to actually change
people’s lives, um, change their circumstances, even in the smallest ways. I
think it would be really meaningful for most of, most of my families that I
work with.

Gian: Yeah. Yeah. So, so what would that, what would that look like?

Kanoelani: I think in some cases it might look like, you know, some program
now in the state that I’m in, they have, and I think in a lot of states, I’m in
a red state. so, I’m in a Republican state. And so, in a lot of states like
mine, like they’ve definitely took a knife and scissors to mental health, to
education, all the important things. Like we’ve cut funding, a lot of funding
has been lost. So, it definitely would mean like more funding in those areas, because
it’s making it hard for people, you know, hard for people to get by. and people
suffering, you know, they’re, they’re, they need help. they need like the,
you’ll notice, especially, or I am, you know, people are on waiting lists to
see like a therapist for like months. And therapists are like months out. I’m
not, but I have, and it’s probably because I’m, I work with kids, but most of
them are, and, you know, people are in these dire situations that they need
somebody to talk to. They need somebody to work through some stuff with, even
if it’s short term. just to get them to where they can cope better. So, I think
like initially a lot of its funding, it’s like, Really what that means is we
need people to actually vote in a way that actually helps themselves and helps
the community, because that’s not what’s happening right now. Right now, we
have a lot of people that, I feel like, like people like are voting with like
zero conscience of the fact that these things have consequences, you know?

Gian: Yeah, there’s two. So, there’s, there’s two points that I wanted
to, I wanna know that I see a lot of parallels between what you’re saying and
the that’s happening in the United States and what I see happening in the
Netherlands and what I see happening elsewhere. And it’s these people voting
against their own interests. So structurally having a message that says there
are other people. To blame for your problems. And if you vote for these people
in power, then somehow those problems will go away. And it’s not structural change
like voting for a more healthcare, voting for, you know, infrastructure, voting
for, you know, no, it’s actually, it’s voting against, migrant rights, women’s
rights LGBT rights, and somehow the problems never go away.And it’s like, why
did that happen? Right. So, it’s, it’s, yeah. And it’s, I know, shocker. Right?
And it’s the, it’s the same, it’s the same playbook in every, every region,
right? Yeah. Like, so we’re seeing in the us we’re seeing it in, in South
America, north America, and Europe and Africa. Like, it’s always quite similar
people don’t seem to be making those connections, which is really unfortunate. And
then I also wanted to mention, the therapist. Question or the point where
people are, who need people to talk to. Not having a therapist for months out,
like being, not having, you know, not being able to see a therapist for months,
coming very specifically from a personal example, this was my case in the
Netherlands, right? So, there’s a very good, um, healthcare system here, right?
You know, it’s, it’s, uh, you know, socialized medicine, all that. But
nevertheless, like. The way that it happens for a number of people. And I
actually do research on mental healthcare in migrants for folks who are not Dutch
or not European citizens.Uh, and the thing that I was hearing from a lot of my
research respondents was where they were saying, yeah, it took me weeks and
months and months to get access to somebody to talk to. And then that person
isn’t even trained to talk to somebody like me. So, you’re just like, oh man.
How does that, how is that even like, what’s going on?So, yeah, all I can say.

Kanoelani: I think we see that here. We see that here too.

Gian: Ooh. Say, can you say more?

Kanoelani: I feel like, I feel like people, I feel like I have a lot of
clients who even told me, like, I don’t even know why they, they gave me this
person. Like, they didn’t know. They didn’t know what they were talking about,
or they felt like they didn’t, so like, and it does take time to like get a
match, but like, if they don’t even, like, they don’t speak your language, like
that’s gonna be a problem. But like, it’s bad. I think mental healthcare across
like the world is just really, really, I mean, I don’t know if it’s like it’s,
there’s like, I think it’s a combination of there’s a lack of trained people
and there’s also.Some of us are not being, I, I think it’s a big issue of
there’s like a, a gap in pay of what some of us are receiving. So it’s like a
lot of people, some people have stopped doing therapy altogether and are like
working privately, because they’re just like not getting what they need to like
survive.So, like there are a lot of issues with mental healthcare, like, I
guess not just here, but worldwide.

Gian: Yep. Yep. Can confirm, can confirm. Um, so before, uh, before I go
to, um, some of the last kind of wrap up questions, I did wanna get briefly,
your, your take on sort of the power lifting aspect of things. I know you
mentioned that in your chapter, and I just kind wanted to touch base with you. How’s,
what’s going on, how you, how’s that going?

Kanoelani: So, so I’ve been on like a, I guess we could say I’ve been on kind
of like a bit of a break right now. Cause I’ve been just so, I’ve been so busy
with work, and I’ve been busy with I guess we can say I’ve been, been really
busy, since I am under supervision and I have to deal with that.I’ve been busy
with that stuff, trying to get fully licensed, so yeah, and, and life has
continued to life. I’ve had some job changes in between that. So I’ve had a lot
going on. So, I have kind of, I’ve really, honestly not really been in the gym
a whole lot, just because I’ve just been dealing with a lot of stuff.So…

Gian: As we say, life been lifein.

Kanoelani: It really does.

Gian: Okay. No, that’s, I mean, that’s, that’s real. That’s real. okay,
so, okay. Now I’m just gonna, I’m gonna ask the, the two, the two last
questions that I always ask people. Is there something that you feel that you
would like to express to the listeners to, you know, kind of have a wrap up
message?That’s the one thing. And the second thing, is there anything, is there
anything that you would like to say to me? Ask me, critique, comment, concern,
existential angst, you know, whatever it is, so the floor is yours for the last
one or two or no things.

Kanoelani: Well, I just wanna thank you for letting me come on here today and
talk, just about myself and just like my belief system and like what’s going on
in my part of the world. I don’t know. I think if I can give a message to
listeners is that like I see them, I hear you, like don’t give up., life is,
life Do be life. So, hold on. And really like, work with yourself with
compassion and love and empathy. Remember the same stuff you give to other
people, the same love, empathy, and compassion you give to other,

Gian: Oh wait, oh, wait.

You, you’re muted or something. Hang on one
second.

Kanoelani: So, I just wanna remind people that the same love, empathy, and
compassion that you give for other people, make sure you give that to yourself
too, um, and give yourself some grace, where when nobody is perfect. So that’s
okay. Just keep going.

Gian: Great. Okay.

Well, thank you Kanoelani for coming to talk
to me and sharing your wisdom and your expertise.And if I could just speak
directly to the listeners and watchers of the Critical Beings Podcast if
anything that either of us said resonated with you or you wanna discuss with us
or anything, then please, please, please comment in the transcript below. Just
highlight and click the speech bubble and you can have a continued conversation.
So that’s pretty much it. And I guess now we’ll just, say goodbye until the
next time.

Kanoelani: Yes.

Gian: Bye-bye. Okay.

With Dr. Roc Rochon, @pcswakework on Instagram,  founder of Rooted Resistance and co-editor of Deconstructing the Fitness Industrial Complex  

(if you are interested in purchasing the book, please consider avoiding Amazon/going through local vendors)

Gian: hey everybody. I’m Gian Hernandez. I’m a postdoc at the University of Amsterdam, in the Amsterdam School of Communication Research, and this is the Critical Beings Podcast. Today’s guest is the recently minted Dr. Roc Rochon, who is the founder of Rooted Resistance, a grassroots practice that is committed to reimagining movement for queer, trans, and non-binary people. And one of the editors of the 2023 volume “Deconstructing the Fitness Industrial Complex: How To Resist, Disrupt, And Reclaim What It Means To Be Fit In American Culture.” I’m really looking forward to today’s conversation and uh, yeah. Let’s welcome Dr. Roc Rochon. How are you doing?

Roc: Good. Thank you so much. I’m happy to be here with you. Excited for
our conversation.

Gian: Yeah. Is there anything that you would like to add to this already?
Super interesting, info. I mean, there’s probably more that we could talk
about. Any points caveats, something you’d like to specify? I’m sure we’ll talk
about it as well as we get through the, through the, through the interview.

Roc: Yeah. I think the only thing that I would. Kinda share, and I think
we’ll get more into it, as you just said, is that some of the things we’re
gonna be talking about are, um, extend far and wide, through so many different
communities, globally as you shared earlier in our pre-talk. So, I just, I hope
that people really think about that.Like a lot of this work is not new. There’s
a lineage and legacy of it, existing through many of our bodies.

Gian: Love that. Yeah, exactly. So, we’re definitely, I mean, we’re about
to get right into like that is exactly what this is about. So, can you just
maybe talk a little bit about your work and what you do, what you feel
passionate about, what excites you? Yeah, just hit us with the knowledge.

Roc: Yeah. You know, when I think of this question, I always like to
start. Like as a child, as a youth playing sports and physical being, you know,
participating in physical activity and really recreation recreational sport in
the town that I grew up in, and having access to that. But then as I aged a
little bit and got into high school and became a teenager. I started seeing
what I would say is inequality, social inequality through sport. And I saw that
as our practice time, our fields, our equipment, and also the fact that many of
our coaches for certain sports, we had different coaches every year. So,
thinking about continuity and discontinuity in terms of community building and
building trust with people and reliable community members showing up. So, I
like to think about my background is sport management. Or that’s at least the
broad field that the work that I do is, is situated under. I like to think
about kinda social inequality, oppression and power in those terms through the
avenue of sport.

Gian: Oh, okay. And so, you’re, so sport management might be, let’s say,
one of the, the kind of fields that you’re, you’re moving in, but can you talk
a little bit more about also your work in rooted resistance? I’m sure there’s
so much, uh, linkage there.

Roc: Absolutely. And, you know, we could examine and interrogate sport
management as a field. I think I like to situate myself in critical sports
studies, and I think we’ll get to some of that a bit later. But, you know, if
someone’s asking me, oh, what did you study? You know, I, I say different
things to different people because often if I say sport management, it’s like,
oh, you want to be a general manager? And it’s like, no, actually I want to
interrogate the sport industry, but also leverage and situate grassroots sporting.
So, I think about root of resistance and how I came to that. I was a college
athlete at a D-3 school. I played softball there. So, I have this history of
being in athletics. After I graduated, I participated in like, you know,
recreation, sport, post-graduation, you know, slow pitch softball, uh,
volleyball leagues. What I like to consider, some people consider that informal
sport, a community-based sport, and I always had just different experiences
participating in that, in ways that felt better, less regimented, less rigid,
but I also started power lifting, at one point. I really got into strength
training. Prior to that, I played on a tackle football team and I got a
concussion. And a part of my healing process was to put weight on the barbell
and be able to count it, you know, that helped my brain get back into this
flow. But in the mix of all of that, I got connected to power lifting and in
that space, It was very generative for me, but it was also like, I’m, I still
can’t be my full self or I’m showing up as my full self, but there’s this, you
know, questioning and assumption about like non-binary and trans people in a
way that to me, felt harmful. So, I’m like, I’m divesting, I’m not, you know,
I’m not gonna compete in certain federations. And so, what happened? And I’m
gonna get to rooted resistance, what happened in this power lifting space? I
started inviting some of my queer trans friends, and then I was like, I can’t
invite them into this space, actually. You know, we trained a couple times together
and I’m like, this space, this is not gonna work. So, I was like, let’s just
work out outside, like let’s just train together outside. And I started doing
that just one-on-one with people. And black trans men especially would contact
me through Instagram and say, hey, can we train together in Tampa? And many of
them had gym memberships, so we would go train together. And then we just got
to a point where it was like, let’s just train outside, and we’re having these
political conversations. While we’re moving our bodies about transness, you
know, about queerness, about oppression, structural oppression, and it’s just
like, then we start talking about the land and the history of the land. So,
rooted resistance started, I think it started be before me, you know what I
mean? Like before my physical being.  But
it started in 2016 in Tampa when I just was like, I’m sick of going into a
fitness center. I’m tired of that. You know, I don’t want to be stared at, I
don’t want the gaze there, I don’t want to have to interact with people that
don’t know me, and I don’t know them. So that’s how, that’s the inception of
it. And it started as one-on-one training and then I had a full-time job at the
time, and I really didn’t have time to just keep training people one-on-one.
So, I was like, let’s start doing group training. And I asked the individuals
that I was working with, how would you all feel about that? And they were like,
let’s do it. So that’s how this kind of group collective rooted resistance
came. And I see it as this democratic process where the participants, who I’ve
met over the years have really, uh, shared how they want things to go.

Gian: Wow.  I’m so

Roc: Yeah.

Gian: I’m so, I’m so in awe. Like that’s, that’s amazing. I see so many
things that I really want to touch on. This idea of being contextual and
saying, you know, what did you study? And like having different answers for
different people. I see a lot of parallels for like different identity
constructs that we have. Like for me, if I talk to somebody and they’re like,
oh, so where are you from? It like, depends on who the person is and like what
they, you know? I especially in, yeah. I live in Europe, right? And people have
this thing about like, “oh, where are you really from?”  But if it’s like a European PoC  like I really feel like that’s like, has a
different valence. And so, this contextuality piece is super important. But
that’s, that’s, I mean, that’s like a side note, but it’s also like integrated.
Right. But speaking of integration, I really like this notion of connectedness
that you bring up and how your brain and your body, when you talk about healing
are so interwoven because we often think of ourselves as like separate things,
right? Like my brain and my body don’t do the same stuff. And then linking that
to this idea of connecting to yourself and then connecting to individuals and
then connecting to communities, that is like, that’s beautiful. And that is, so
necessary for, you know, the kind of work that that needs to be done. So, I’m
just really glad that you are here to share this message. And you even already
like preempting some of the questions that I wanna ask. You mentioned also
like, critical and like you’re in critical sort of sports studies or critical
fitness studies and these kinds of things. And so, I just kind of wanted to ask
how your work looks in relation to that. Like what is, what is rooted
resistance or what does your writing for example, look like when it comes to,
to notions of criticality, for example?

Roc: I think about the work that I do, I wanna say at three
intersections, but it might be more, but I’ll say three intersections, and
like, you know, my degree will say sport management, you know, that’s what’ll
be printed on the paper. But there’s also like, I guess what people would call
subfields, and that’s not the best descriptive word. But there’s physical
cultural studies and that’s how I like to see my work. You know, yes, my degree
is in sport management, but I studied cultural studies and sport media studies
essentially. And so, thinking about cultural studies, Black studies, and the
sociology of sport, that’s my work is interwoven in all of those. And I think,
you know, we could interrogate each one of them, but something for me, and what
I noticed within these fields or the field of sport management, is that, There
we need to interrogate more why we’re not focusing on and really doing the work
of reading, work in Black studies. I think of my dissertation is rooted in
Christina Sharpes in the Wake, um, and Wake Theory.And Ben Carrington’s and
Paul Gilroy’s kind of concepts of the diaspora, um, the Black diaspora, the
African diaspora, and I see myself as a diasporic person, a Black diasporic
person. So, when I think about my work, and what critical, criticality means,
it’s, it’s about interrogating. It’s about examining, and it, for me, in a Black
body, it’s also not just about Black death, but it’s Black, about Black life, Black
being, how we see ourselves outside of this kind of exploitative, commercialized
sport in the Bblack body in that way. But there’s also, what I argue is
something else happening here, like at the grassroots level. And I would say,
you know, even that term is, I mean, a made-up term, but at the community
level, the cultural work level, Ancient traditional medicine level, you know
what I mean? Like medicinal healing, which now we have all these different
words that, interject into what that might have meant for our ancestors or, but
so I see it critical as we cannot talk about sport without talking about
settler colonialism or without talking about enslavement of Black bodies and
the interconnection between. What it means, what settler colonialism means, as
this ongoing structural project, what the, I would say remnants of or continuation
the continuity of enslavement means like, to me, that’s a place to start.
That’s a starting point, not a place to just kind of footnote, if you will.

Gian: Completely. Yeah.  And I
mean, I love, uh, Sharp’s work. Like, like, uh, I, I once had a summer reading
group and it was just one of my, the favorite points of my life to just discuss
these ideas. And I think, you know, what I find most interesting about this
idea of the wake is how it’s so non extractive. And I try to do this here as
well, right? Where I’m not having a research interview where I’m trying to get
information out of. My participants, I’m really wanting to, you know,
highlight, uplift, create connection, create community, and with this in the
notion of the wake, right? And having kind of these sort of reverberating waves
of like kind of going out into the, into the world. And so, my question also
for you and somebody who is, you know, obviously deeply entrenched in these
kinds of knowledge flows, how do you identify with other people doing? Or not
at all. Right. How, if at all, do you identify with other people doing this
work? Is do you find that it resonates in sports management? Do you find, cause
you’re saying that like, we should be paying attention to Black studies
scholars. I agree, but how do you, you, how do you see that manifesting
practically in the various fields in which you find yourself?

Roc: That’s such a great question. I think I have, there are two
colleagues that I think of. When I hear this question and one who I’m
collaborating with actively, and his name is Dr. Nick Dickerson, and he’s
actually in Europe. He’s in the U.K. I’ll connect you two.

Gian: Yes, yes, please.

 Roc: yeah, I sure will. And then there’s Dr.
Chen Chin, at UConn. And I think I mentioned him to you Yeah. A couple weeks
back. Yeah, but specific to Dr. Dickerson, he has written about Christina Sharpe
or used Christina Sharpe in his work, more recently and over the, I would say
the last two to three years, him and I have had just plenty of discussions
about, How we situate our work in these question marks that we have that you
know, what’s your disciplinary home is what we ask ourselves or people ask us
that. And so, we are reflecting on that in like, actually in, you know, really,
and in my dissertation interrogating what does home mean, you know, home in
quotes, and the complexities of home. So, I would say that there are a few
people who are doing work that I feel very much in alignment with, and that I
think is very important for the field of sport management and these offsets of,
I would say, sports studies, just collectively, and critical sports studies. So,
I think, I mean, I think it’s received well from, you know, certain people and
I don’t know what, I can’t imagine that anyone would be like, no, don’t do
that. You know, but perhaps they will. I’m still gonna do it. But the point is
that, if we’re really trying to think deeply, as you outlined earlier about
making these connections on an individual collective community level, globally,
then we need to theorize differently.We need to think differently. We need to
do, use different methods and, and our voices, oral histories, if you will. I
think for me at least, is  an area that I
really like to focus in on and how can I, be and do better in, in, in asking
important questions. And how can those, how can the answers, how can the, I
would say, how can these stories, what do these stories compel us to do,
essentially? So, these, there are several people in the field. That inspire me
and encourage me, and I think encourage this work, but there is this kind of
feeling of wanting to be somewhere else. Do you know what I mean? Like in this
discipline that, you know, people just think is business driven. I mean because
look what we can see in the world around sport. But there is very important
critical work happening, and I don’t know. I’m hopeful that it will continue
happening, but I would say that it’s, it’s uneven. There is certain work that’s
privileged over other work and the sport industry as an industry, certainly
perpetuates, what’s in the hierarchy, what’s in that, what’s in the hierarchy,
what’s above, and what’s below.

Gian: Definitely I’m, uh, it’s so, I’m so living this experience right
now in a visceral way because I literally, um, a week, like a week ago,
resubmitted a, scoping review of essentially an analysis of like how, sports
studies or sports science and kinesiology journals are implementing critical
approaches from a critical communication perspective.And my colleague and I
shout out Kyle, we are, we had this conversation today about like, what if
these people aren’t willing to hear what we want to say? And so, I think. This
hierarchy and who is privileged and who counts, and all of these things are
integral questions into what, you know, constitutes the field and how we can
sort of relate to one another. So, this is, this is for me also very, very,
relevant also on a personal level.

Roc: Totally, you know, I mean, the politics of research, right? And I’ll
say the research is one part, but regardless for me of the research, I’m still
gonna do the work. If it’s not published in a journal, the work is still
happening in the community. And it’s actually been happening before I started
this PhD program. After, you know, it, it, it has been there and it’s like,
yeah. Just something I always ask myself and it’s like, you know, what am I
doing? You know what I mean? What am I doing to shift some things? And that,
and for me, that’s usually on a local level. I don’t know if me publishing an
article is shifting things maybe, maybe in a hundred years, but me doing the
work in the community daily showing up is definitely shifting things. And those
people who are cultural workers and organizers and movement workers, they are
shifting things every day. So, I just, you know, which side do I want to be on?
I’m clear on that. on that part.

Gian: Yeah, that’s real. I mean, thank you for that, the call in right
there because I also, you know, I am so in this neoliberal like publisher or perish
type, you know, mentality that I also forget, like obviously there are much
more important things than having a line on your CV.So that, I mean, that’s
real. No, that’s dope. Okay. So, but to, to kind of, you know, go into,
speaking of, speaking of research, right? So, when I say the word critical, like
what, what does that, if, if you can kind of crystallize what comes up for you
When I say it in a broad sense, if I say critical, are you like, oh, makes
sense? Or how do you, how do you relate to that word?

Roc: I think about teaching a lot when I hear that word. Cause I love to
teach, and I also think a lot about folks who have, Who I’ve gotten to think
with, like bell Hooks and Palo Fre, and those are folks that have really informed
the way that I teach. And I would say the way that I research or the ways that
I research, so critical. For me has to do with dialogue. It has to do with thinking
out loud, thinking in groups, having time to digest something by myself, but
then also being in a setting, literally a circle where we’re, you know, talking
about this quote or what does this mean? Or I, this is so unfamiliar to me, or you
know, I’m really challenged by this. Do you know what I mean? Like I and I,
that to me is the beautiful part about it. To read something or to hear a story
and say this goes against everything that I believe or was raised to believe. So,
it’s, you know, the other day my friend and I were talking, and we said, we, we
asked ourselves how did we turn out the way we’ve turned out, like in terms of
the way that we think, in terms of the way that we move in the world. And this
conversation had to do specifically with trans athletes and trans people and
just some of the things that we’re seeing. People that we grew up with post on
social media and and such. But this question of like, I don’t really know if
it’s a question, but for me it’s like, if I, I’m thinking about body autonomy
and the ways that people name their bodies, and who am I or who is anyone to
say, you can’t call your body this, or this body part can’t be named this, it
must be named this. Or, you know, the debates of what is a woman and what is a
man, and it’s like, there are so many iterations at the answers to those
questions. So, to me, to be uncritical would, would be this rigid box or
whatever shape people want to just, plug people into. But to be critical for me
would be to ask questions. And just because to me, you don’t have to understand
something to treat someone with dignity or respect. It’s not to me about an
understanding or misunderstanding. More or less, more, more like, you know,
ignorance or willful ignorance. But to me, to be critical is like, really
thinking about my positionality. Like how did I get here? What are the
histories that are tied to Every cell and bone and tissue that has me here, you
know, in Tallahassee, Florida, traditional territory of the Seminoles and
Appalachee and Muskogee Creek people. What has, what got me here and if I trace
back history as much as I can and, you know, there will be some information
there.And the question for me then is, what am I gonna do with that
information? Am I gonna deny it? or am I going to ask more questions about it,
be enraged about it, you know, be sad and, just have my whole worldview shaken
by it. So, I feel like that was a long answer, but I, it’s almost like I. Being
uncritical, I can give plenty examples of being uncritical to kind of leverage
the importance of what it means to be critical and interrogate ourselves, and
our projections onto other people.

Gian: Yeah. Yeah. No, I completely agree. And, and I think also you
raised this really interesting point, and I’d love to hear your thoughts on
expanding it a little bit more, but this idea of the fact that it’s all
related, and so when we talk about histories and legacies, and you know, you
highlight these. For example, emotional or effective, dimensions of tracing the
history, right? Are you going to be mad about the fact that, you know, our
ancestors were treated in x, y, z ways? Are you going to be sad about it? Are
you going, what are you going to do with it? And it’s a very much embodied reaction.
Right? It’s not cerebral. It’s, or it’s, it’s partially cerebral, but it’s also
felt deeply and emotive and so I, I think, you know, when we talk about
criticality, this is part of the reason why I have this podcast is it’s also,
it’s critical thinking. For sure. We need critical thinking. We need critical
thinkers in the world and in you know, politics and social situations, but we
also need to be critical as in, as in being a, being in, in a critical sense.
And so, I think, you know, when you, when you bring up these points, it’s also,
I’m also reminded of that. So how do you, how do you relate to some of these
things? Like, I just kind of also wanted to hear you talk more.

Roc: Yeah. I wanna hear you talk more. I say we’re always in a form of
embodiment. We are always embodying something. If we are in the Doak stadium, there’s a
football arena in this city, and that stadium is filled up every football
season. I’ve never experienced that. It never will, but it’s filled every
season. The people in that stadium are embodying something when they are in
that stadium. And they’re participating in, you know, what I believe is to be a
racist tomahawk chop that is an embodiment of something. And so, I think when
we think about embodiment, if we can understand it as always being in a form of
it, whether that is, whether that form is in alignment with who we say we are
or whether that form is in alignment with who we want to be, because. And I can
think of personal examples where, you know, I might be frustrated about
something and asking myself, well, why does this bother me so much? Or if I,
you know, if you’re in a scenario where you’re acting out in some way and it’s
like, that’s a form of an embodiment. So, it’s, we’re always in this, in a
state of embodiment and the visceral Reaction,  you’ve mentioned like visceral reactions to
things. When I think of the depths of violence, structural and medical violence
that Black people have experienced, that intersects people and trans people and
non-binary people or gender queer people have experienced that Black women cis
women have experienced that black trans women have experienced. I think of it
on a visceral level. There is, it comes down to the body always, you know, Ta-Nehisi
Coates has a quote, and I’m not going to get it exactly correct, but he names
like all the disciplines, history, sociology, anthropology, and then at the end
of it, it’s just like all of those things are words and disciplines, and some
people understand them, but at the end of the day, it comes down to the body. And
it is true for us. So, it’s, it’s true for us and it’s true for me. When I
think about embodiment in the forms of the way that I want to be and the things
that I want to put out into the world, it’s a constant kind of revisiting. And
I guess something that I also wanna say, as you can see back here, this is an
altar of my grandma, grandma, Helen, and my mom, my mother’s mom. And when I
think about the work that we do in the wake, whether we acknowledge it as wake
work or not, I am increasingly understanding that, you know, I’m not here
alone. You know what I mean? But my ancestors are with me, and I call on the
ones that want to be in my life. That support my life, that uplift my life, to
be present. So, this, the work that I do in the wake is inextricably connected
to, my ancestors. And so, I have some altars in my house to acknowledge that
and recognize them.

Gian: Hmm. Yeah.

Roc: Which for me is also a form of embodiment or an extension of it at
least.

Gian: Yeah, I mean, I get that right? Like I’m struck by, you know, when
I hear people talk about their bodies and when I hear people talk about the
relationships their bodies have to the current moment and the past moments, and
possibly the future as well. I’m always struck by the fact that it is, as you
say, it’s inextricably connected. And this is the case for a lot of people. And
yet mainstream discourses want to dissociate those two things. They want to,
they wanna say, okay, so you are an individual body, you are a producer, you
are an economic unit, and you don’t have a connection to anybody else. And this
is very convenient for specific powers, right? Whatever structure might have an
interest in your body as like, you know, as I said, economic unit, right? And so,
I’m wanting to think about ways we can you know, highlight these connections,
right? As we said before, it’s all related. And
you know, if we can, if we can talk about our ancestors, if we can talk about
our, the, you know, I don’t have plan on having children, but the people who
are going to come afterwards, in that kind of sense. So,  I guess really the question is, it becomes,
is how do you. Think of your body in a more, in a broader sense, right? How
does one, not even just you, but how do we all think of our bodies in a broader
sense? What do you, what do you think about this?

Roc: Yeah. I don’t know why. I mean, maybe I do know why, but the first
thing I’m thinking of with hearing this question is Covid-19 and living in the
wake of and con continuousness of a global pandemic because it’s still
continuing, it’s not over, and I know what that means for me and my body. And I
also know what it means for my politics around how I would interact with other
bodies in public spaces. And for me, that means masking. And because I feel
that every body, literally, every body is vulnerable. I, you know, I
understand, um, the different levels of variability for people’s bodies,
including my own, and I have several people with chronic, disabilities in my
life. And I still see our bodies as inextricably linked. And the potential of
like sharing of deadly virus with someone that I’m related to, or a complete
stranger just feels really icky for me. So, I think about and, and actually
regardless of someone’s politics, do you know what I mean? Like, so for me it
comes down to humanity and it comes down to dignity. But I’m thinking about
this word of connection and trying to connect all of these things, which is a
big feat, but I’ll say, kind of these systems are structured, so colonialism
and patriarchy, or we could just hone in on patriarchy and the ways that I think
it trickles down into, popular culture or in our daily lives. There are several
things in popular culture that have been made public in the last couple of
weeks with celebrities and the way that patriarchy. And this kind of control
over women’s bodies, over trans people’s bodies, shows up in so many different
ways. You know, what women can do, what cis women can do, what trans women can
do or can’t do. And at the end of the day, all of these systems and structures
have been more exclusionary than not. So, it would be for me, so, denying that
I think is extremely dangerous, but that’s a good starting point to say, hey,
all of these, all of these systems and institutions have been committed to
exclusion. So, if, if we’re in like an affinity group of Black folks, I’m gonna
argue that the majority, if not all of black folks would agree with that. Maybe
not if Clarence Thomas is in the group, but you get what I mean. The majority
of Black folks might say yes. The systems have been in, you know, committed to
exclusion. Then when we bring in trans people, what happens? What changes?
Because the truth would remain, that truth would remain for trans people
historically. And then if we bring in disabled people, do you know what I mean?
So, it’s like, I think, and specifically in sport, I think the veil continues
to be, or the curtain continues to roll back because it’s like, wait a minute,
we’re situating this group of people as a threat. That, but it’s not just
people. It’s bodies, literal bodies are now a threat and it’s like, hmm, where
did that narrative exist before?  Because
it’s this, as you named, kind of like a neoliberal higher education. So, let’s
think of neoliberal sport and let’s think of neoliberal histories and just, you
know, the list can go on neoliberal record in archives. Like, you know, we can
just literally substitute out groups into exclusion and excluded, and I think, I
think I’m veering off of the question a little bit, but I think my point is
that, people, people I think have very quickly, showed their politics in terms
of their belief system and if they can reach for power, if they can then be in
this hierarchical position. They’re gonna do it, and that to me, I think in the
last three years or the last four, has been very telling about how, the script
gets flipped really quickly, in terms of, oh yeah, I’ve experienced a systemic
oppression and so has my family. And then it’s like, what are you doing right
now to a group of people that, are different from you?

Gian: Yeah,  I mean this idea of
critical that you bring up is, is asking questions and thinking about the
implications of those questions for the structure. I think that’s a, that is a
completely legitimate point of view to think, okay, so what is the situation
now? How have we gotten here and what are the questions that I can ask to sort
of shift these narratives that you suggest. But in relation also to, to covid
19, and also you, you ta, you touched on this a little bit, this notion of the
daily and the, the, you know, the quotidian, the ongoing, the continuous
whatever. Where do you, or how do you situate your body in the everyday life?
Like, how do you use your body and what aspects of it do you find important for
your work, for example?

Roc: What a question. Hmm. I use my body for everything, but I’ll say even
I use it for rest more now. I feel even during the dissertation process,  I try to center that rest too. because, and
I’ll be honest, I’m not an all-nighter person. Like I, that’s just not, I
cannot operate in that way. And I wasn’t even when I was in an undergrad,
that’s not how I operate. So, this kind of, we touched on it earlier, but this

like productivity or whatever productivity means for some people, but I know

what it means for systems. I’m just not gonna do an all-nighter. Like I wake up

at 6:00 AM but I’m not doing an all-nighter, you know? So, I think checking in

with myself, I. about the ways that I use my body, about what feels good in my

body. You know, we can discuss working out and, all various forms of body work.
I’m not someone that’s really gonna do something fast, especially when it’s
lifting weight. I’m gonna take my time and do it. So, and I think, I mean,
that’s a part of embodiment, touching base with yourself on how things feel. Does
this feel good to me? and if it doesn’t, then I’m not gonna do it. You know,
I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna continue participating in it, but I think another answer
that I’ll say in connection to this, this question in the last several years, I
also have felt very closed off to people. So, the way that I see my body as a
shield for myself to not be. As in public as I was before, and not to say that
I’m not somebody who I’m a homebody, but I’m not. I just, I often see myself as
a, if you’re thinking about a turtle and a turtle shell and you go into that
shell to protect yourself and you come out when it feels safe, I will say more
than not, like teaching, teaching at the university. I have felt kind of
constricted actually. So working on that and reworking that, dropping in and
breathing, you know what I mean? Full breaths. So, thinking about my body and
some of the ways that, it’s been harmed over these, these years is also a
reality for me.

Gian: Yeah, I mean, yeah, we can talk about vulnerability and harm as,
you know, integral in these mechanisms, these disciplinary mechanisms, right?
Like how they, how, you know, for example, structures will keep us in a specific
position, because we’re supposed to be productive, we’re supposed to want to do
these all-nighters. We’re supposed to, you know, do all these things, and it’s
like, for whom? And what does it serve? These are, I, I think these are also
legitimate questions. So, what, um, so when we talk about, you know, the body
and its capacity for rest and also its capacity to lift weights and capacity to
be vulnerable and to shield oneself, what aspects do you think are important? Like
what’s physical characteristics are important for your, for your practice, for
example?

Roc: I, that’s, yeah. For my practice I like, I like ease. I like
starting my day with ease. And for instance, this is not, I mean in, in terms
of working out or, but I have tea every morning. It’s just something that I do
and throughout the day, you know, I check in on my grandma. Like these are
things that I, that are ritual practice to my day. And in terms of lifting or
that type of body work? Well, let me rewind a little bit. There’s a trans, massage
therapist in town who, I’m thankful to be connected to him because that’s also
part of my regimen, gym working out the kinks. And just things that have built
up in my body and working out finding community. With the local, uh, local gym
in town, it’s a trauma informed gym. Um, it’s a lot of different, I would say
each day is a different challenge. Each workout is a different challenge. And
again, checking in with my body, like what is bench press gonna feel like for
me today? Or what’s back squat gonna feel like for me today? So, I like weight.
I like strength training. I really enjoy it. It feels good for me. It feels, I
love building strength and endurance and I think. Just to give an example, over
the course of the last three years, the way that I do that has changed because
I was in a different place than I was, you know, four years ago than I am right
now. Because the pandemic changed a lot for me, as it did for many of us. So, I
think being easeful with my body, being thankful for my body, you know, waking
up in the morning, completing a workout or completing one movement, or also
saying, I’m, you know, I’m not gonna do one more rep. I’m good where I’m at. But

being that, you know, thanking my body for, for getting me to that point. It’s

just trying to be in tune because like you shared earlier, there’s so much in
the world that wants us to be disconnected from our body. And, you know, we are
forced to interact with these institutions and, I think the things that we can
do that bring us joy, that bring us connection that we can just drop in with
ourselves and other people like our true kin. That’s what I want more of.
That’s what I welcome into my life.

Gian: That’s a, that’s a, I mean that’s a, I think the goal, right? The
goal is connection. The goal is community. So, it really, I mean, prefaces this
next question really well, because you talk about connection with yourself,
which is. An integral part of, you know, a holistic practice, but then also how
do you, connect with others and what aspects of other people’s bodies are
important, for example, in your field or in your practice as well.

Roc: You know, when we were doing weekly workouts with rooted resistance,
you know, I would set up the workout and, you know, there would be some people
who come and they just would lay on the grass and they’d be like, Roc, not
today. And I’m like, that’s fine. Lay on the grass. Touch the earth. Be with
the earth. So, when I think about, I’ll say this, when we used to work out in
this, this intimate space in Tallahassee and you know,  the different exercises would be in a circle.
Sometimes it was just body weights. Sometimes I would bring equipment, but just
that alone was connecting with other people’s bodies and, um, in a consensual
way, in an accountable way. And, you know, and it’s like just to see people
start the first time and then come back. A year later, like well, consistently
for a year, and be able to drop into themselves and say, I was used to be so
concerned about my body in this space, or in other fitness spaces. And then I
came here, and I focused on, well, my body feels strong now. It’s not even
about the aesthetic of my body. I am strong and I feel that I made friends or
I, you know, I made people, I made connections with people, um, that are really
reliable and trustworthy. And it’s just like, if I’m honest with you, I would
go and set the workout up. We would work out, talk, have fun, and then
sometimes sit in a circle for hours after the workout. Just talking to the
point where I used to be like, yo, I have to go, I have to write a paper, you
know, but People would still be there. And the point for me is I don’t need to
be there for that to happen. That’s the point of it. It’s like it is now
happening. And so how, you know, how can we continue that? So yeah, like I
shared that the pandemic changed a lot because we don’t have weekly workouts
anymore. And so many people, majority of the people who were a part of that
community all moved away. So. You know, that’s leading me to rethink some
things. And also, with myself relocating soon, um, how I can revamp it, and do
it in a safe way. Because for me, just politically and ethically, I wasn’t
comfortable with bringing people together, even outside given the, the
situation with Covid-19 that just wasn’t worth it to me. So, there’s other ways
to stay connected, but I’ll say, the relationships and relating to other people
takes time. It takes commitment and it takes showing up. And a part of that, that’s
the most beautiful part of, I think the last five years of living in this
particular place is those relationships, and some of them that are continuous.

Gian: Nice. Nice. So, we are talking a little bit about, Community and
establishing sort of connection with others. And I really wanna hear kind of
your thoughts on the field, right? Because you’re, this is a practice for you
in terms of, personal training or move movement work with others. But then also
what developments do you see in any of the various fields that you find
yourself in, and what would you like to see?

Roc: What do I see and what would I like to see?

Gian: Yeah.

 Roc: It’s interesting because, you know, even
with the book, you know, the book is about fitness with the fitness industrial
complex, and I come from more of a sport lens. But again, they’re, they’re
connected. They’re, they come from the same, um, cloth, if you will. So, what I
see happening, what we spoke about a little bit earlier, there are people
everywhere globally, that are doing this work. And I think. In some ways,
coaches, fitness trainers, fitness specialists or you know, movement
specialists, body workers are thinking about ways to heal their own bodies and
other people’s bodies. And, and I’m tapped into just like a fragment of that. There’s
so much more for me to learn about the things that people are doing, and the
work, the work of doing the work. So, I will say that I know that. There’s this
wide range of, I would say, liberatory body work that’s, that exists that
people are participating in.And I see it even at the grassroots level in sport.
You know, I see it with Justice Roe Williams in Boston and what he’s doing. So,
these things are happening and something that I will say, That I, that I think
should be happening more or can happen more in the future. I. As institutions
so they can higher institutions with funding and faculty with funding to fund
these projects, to help sustain them. And there are, because there are people
in the grassroots level who are doing this work, and they’re working five jobs,
but they’re still doing this work because it’s important. It’s a part of their
life, their, their literal livelihood, and their being. So how can these funds
be redistributed to connect to the community and, and trust that the people on
the ground know where that money needs to be. So that’s something that I could,
that I want, I, you know, want more of. I know it exists and it’s happening,
but specific to kind of this field or the fields that I’m touching, I’m like,
how can we write this grant or apply for this funding that that would literally
sustain, would, would change the game in sustaining this program and this
person, this one person who is essentially doing more work than some of these
nonprofits are doing, without the harm, you know? So, I, I think that that’s a
possibility. You know what I mean?

Gian: Yeah, I can, I cannot agree more. I think when we think about
structural inequalities and institutions with money and then folks with no
money and not folks not getting paid for their time, energy, and labor. I mean,
we wanna talk about that. We could talk about that for a long time. Right. So
what, what I mean, and I really, I’m really glad that you bring it up because
what we need to see, and I’m, I’m trying to work in this politic of, you know,
paying people for their time, putting money out there, like really making sure
that it’s not you know, lip service. It’s not saying, oh, these perspectives
are really important, okay, but pay me. Right? That’s what, that’s like, the
perspective is important, then gimme the job. You know? And so that’s what I, I
think, really needs to take place. And I’m really glad that you, that you also
wanna see that in, in various fields, right? Not just sport, but also, um, the
private sector, also the public sector, nonprofits, higher ed. Like, it just,
it definitely needs to be happening. And as you say, it is happening in small facets,
but it definitely needs to be a broader movement. And I guess in my regard, I
would say that those of us with power, because I do come from at least a
somewhat privileged position, it, you know, we need to be calling, attention to
this and doing more and asking those questions. So yeah, that’s, I really, like
I said, really appreciate you bringing that up. Cool. So,  I really just have like a couple of questions
and they’re kind of related. so that it’s really just you have, um, maybe a
message that you would like to put out as kind of a wrap up, you know, Sum up
kind of situation. And do you have anything that you would like to direct
towards me? Any, any questions, critique, comment, concern, existential angst anything
like that? Those two things, uh, can be interwoven. You could leave one out,
you know, whatever as you prefer.

Roc: Perfect. Okay. So, the first question, I think. Well, I’ll say that
this to me is a starting point, right? There are, I just wanna big up all the
authors in this book, because, well, a starting point I’ll say in a collection
of stories and an anthology of people’s experiences and connection to fitness,
and fitness, you know, and I think that, each of their stories is important and
I hope that it can. Help someone else think differently or at least ask
themselves questions about, oh, this is, you know, I never, I never thought of
fitness in this way, or maybe someone who does think of fitness in these inter
interrogative ways and feels compelled to write their own story and share their
own story, whether that’s with, you know, people who are close to them or on a
blog or whatever the case may be. Because I think something else that does
happen, Is we internalize these things, you know, we internalize harm. We
internalize, sometimes people internalize superiority and what we’re talking
about, bodies and the hierarchy of them. how this hierarchy was designed. It
was created,  to me it’s not real, but
the consequences of it are deathly real, they’re fatal. So, I just want to
shout out all the authors who vulnerably share their stories, and I hope that
people who are reading it are taking something from it. I know that. Yeah, so
I’ll leave it, I’ll leave it at that.

Gian: And I just, I just wanna say, so deconstructing the fitness
industrial complex, how to resist, disrupt, and reclaim what it means to be fit
in American culture. I read it, 10 out of 10 would recommend. You’ll also find
a link. Underneath this, video for when it’s hosted on my website, but if you have
any sort of tangential connection to fitness or anything, it is, it, it should
be required reading. Let me just say that.

Roc: Thank you so much.

Gian: No problem.

Roc: No, I agree. I completely agree. And not just because I’m a part of
it, but I’ll say. But this project, from start to finish was two years cuz you
know, you have to write a proposal and then as one of the co-editors work with
all the authors, and it’s a project that I’m really proud of, that we came
together and did this and out of everyone in the project. Justice and I are the
on, well, I, Justice is the only person that I have ever met, had ever met in
person before the book release in May. So, you know, that speaks to just
relationship building and every iteration and various iterations over the
course of time. And then if no, I’m just thinking about one more thing. One
more thing that I might add, and it has to do with critical sports studies, and
you know how people put the emoji of shaking hands, critical sports studies and
Black studies. I feel like I’m just at the very beginning of wherever this will
go and with whatever colleagues and, you know, community friends that I work on
this with. But I am determined to study the work, and read deeply and reflect
deeply on how to theorize in critical sports studies in a way that pairs with
black studies, and like I said, there are people who have come before me and,
and they’re doing it and have done it. And I hope to add my own perspective,
that’s wrapped around with queerness as well. So that, and so those are the two
things that I would add. And I do have a question for you, because I’m so
curious about even your criticality in your field, and I know you mentioned
your colleague, when you shared the project. How, what’s y’all’s experience in
your field, around kind of critical studies and communication and media
studies? Is that correct?

Gian: So, I was, recently at the international Communication Association
Conference. I’m a communication scholar and, the, uh, question really about
like what constitutes criticality and why, you know, we’re not really
interested in the, or interested in these structural questions is really that
it’s just that health comm is. Not ready to face critical sort of perspectives.
And I found that really telling it and it, it, it, it even showed in the way
that the program was structured, right? All of the more sort of critically
oriented panels were at the end of the conference when people are already
leaving. Right? And so, I felt like that was really, really telling. so yeah, I
think when it comes to health comm and critical critical studies, there’s a
long way to go and I’m trying to, you know, um, bridge those communities or
bridge those knowledge, um, fields. But it’s, I mean, of, of course, right,
it’s in this, in this, it’s set in this neoliberal capitalist structure. But,
you know, we try to navigate as scholars and this publish or perish mentality.
So I would think that. Yeah, the, the work needs to be done. And I’m, I’m, I’m
always curious and, and really grateful to learn from people who are actually
doing, you know, tangible, pragmatic work, which I  wish I could do more of. And yeah, that’s
kind of one of the reasons why I wanted to set up this podcast and really, you
know, access some of these, some of these, yeah. Like we talked about the waves
of the wake. I really wanna surf on them in a little bit. Yeah. To use a
metaphor, right. Uh, so yeah, totally. That’s kind of where I’m at right now.

Roc: Cool. No, I appreciate you sharing that. And I definitely see
overlaps, and your observation about, you know, where’s the more critical
sessions were towards the end, I think is a big, a big one. Or it’s, it was a
big decision to do that, but that, you know, you noticed it, so I’m curious if
other people did too.

Gian: Yeah, they did. We, I mean, when you, when you become part of this,
I think especially with, with. Scholars in a larger field, you find, you know
your allies,

Roc: Your people!

Gian: You find your people. Yeah. You find
your people. Exactly. And we talk about it. We, no, just know we talk. It does
not go unnoticed. so, but yeah. Yeah. That’s, All right, Roc. Well, I’ve had a
great time. I’m really enthusiastic about this recording and I really hope
that, um, you know, people engage with it. Is there any last thoughts or
anything that you would like to contribute before we wrap up?

Roc: No, I just wanna say thank you for having me on. I, yeah. I believe
in this project and the work that you’re doing. And I look forward to being
connected from this point on.

Gian: Yeah, definitely. I thank you for agreeing to be interviewed. It
was really, it was, it was my pleasure. Um, so with that being said,  I’m just gonna, I’m gonna wrap up, but I’m
gonna speak directly now to the, to the listeners and viewers. If you, um, felt
spoken to or wanted to disagree or wanted to interact with any of the things
that we just said, please comment on the transcript that’s below this recording
and, uh, engage, you know, spread, share, like, comment, subscribe, all of
that. And of course, you can interact with, any of the information that we
provided on Roc. So obviously the social media, the book, buy the book, read
the book.  And with that, I’d just like
to say, uh, you know, bye everybody and stay critical.

 

Ep. 4 – Embracing Intersectional Experiences w/ Makisig Akin

@makisigakin on Instagram 
Professional website: Makisig Akin (Website)

Upcoming engagements:
beingtouch.org/it/ – August 15-20th, 2023
Tanznachtberlin.de/tanznachtberlin/ – September 8-9, 2023

Gian: Hey everyone. I’m Gian Hernandez. I’m a postdoc at the University
of Amsterdam, working on critical health and fitness, and this is the Critical
Beings Podcast. This episode’s guest is someone I’ve known for a while and have
recently reconnected with. Makisig is a Filipino queer trans choreographer and
contemporary dancer. Who graduated with their Master of Fine Art in dance
choreography in the program, world Arts and Cultures Dance at University of
California Los Angeles in the United States. Their work is about strengthening
the recognition of intersectional identities, reconnecting with their ancestry
and decentralizing western ideologies in dance making. I’m really excited to
have him here. So, let’s join me and welcoming Makisig. Thanks for being here.

Makisig: Thanks for having me.

Gian:  Is there anything else you’d
like to add to your, to your really interesting bio? I’m super excited to talk
about all these, these fun things.

Makisig: Yeah. Currently, so after I graduated from, UCLA, I moved to Berlin,
Germany. So currently I’m based there and making my work here and yeah.

Gian: Nice, nice. Yeah. Important to situate it also in, in the local
context. So. I just wanna dive right in. So, can you tell me, you know, a
little bit about yourself, how you got to your work? What are you doing? What
do you feel most passionate about? Yeah, all that stuff.

Makisig: Yeah. So, I’m gonna start with like how I even started with
becoming, or like my, in my becoming of a dancer, choreographer. Actually
started, when I went to grad to, college, I was actually getting myself to UC San
Diego as a chemistry major. But in, but in the, um, in discovering of that program and
that path into becoming, uh, Doctor, actually, this is what, this was my goal. I
realized like I needed to be doing some moving and dancing, and I went into the
program there and was just like doing it from on the side and then, really
noticing how much my interest in how the body works and like how these dance
classes have impacted my sense of self and understanding of self and yeah,
predominantly like made me feel more alive basically as I was like struggling
into doing midterms and finals and doing biochemistry and organic chemistry and
like all of these like intense, very, very competitive classes. And so later
on, after, a few years of like two years of doing classes in dance, I’ve. Like
majored in it, I’ve like all of a sudden decided I’m double majoring in both
chemistry and, and dance. And so, I ended up actually changing from, um,
chemistry to cognitive sciences because then it started to focus more on the
body and the brain. And this became like really, like, this is how I found
myself. Like basically being exposed to dance made me learn closer and closer
to what, like interests me and what like, keeps me alive. So afterwards then I
decided to go ahead and do my Masters in dance and choreography. Because it was
like, kind of like a crucial time in my life where, you know, being in the US
this is of course in the US and being an, becoming a, an artist and deciding to
be an artist is almost like an impossible task. Like it’s, it’s impossible to
just be an artist. And so, what I wanted to do was to offer myself the most
possible way to success there. As an artist and, uh, I needed time. So doing my
master’s program was actually what deepened and made it clear a bit more what
it is about dance that was important to me. I needed to go into that. And then
this is where, everything started. So, it, it turns out to be that basically,
um, I became really curious about my identity and like what is happening for me
in dances, my experience of my body as I exist in this field where, many other
bodies are moving and exploring themselves and being seen through movement. And
that slowly, slowly, kind of revealed to me a bit more of my identity as being
a Queer person and then being belonging in that. Type of people who have a
different experience than most folks that I was dancing with, for example. And
then, yeah, it became really cur like curious to me to like to understand that
I am actually becoming more and more like, not like I’ve been a big sense like
how movie stars are, but I was becoming a public figure and knowing that like
what people are seeing.  Me doing on
stage is really important and how they’re actually also understanding who they
are as people. And so, I kind of took on that responsibility and yeah, really
considered that into what I am actually making today in my choreographic works.

Gian: Wow. There’s, okay, so I took, I’m, I was taking some notes. There’s
so many things that I wanna wanna get into, but I also res your story resonates
a little bit with me as well because, when I was doing my undergraduate, I had
a, was I had a degree in music. I was focusing on solely classical trumpet
performance. And then I was taking communication courses and I realized that
actually communication was kind of more what I was into. And so, I kind of had
like a similar realization where I’m like, actually, I. This is important to me,
and I care about this. And, and that brings me to the question that came up to
me. As you were speaking, you said you’d realize what is important to you about
dance, and I want to, I want to ask the question, what is important to you
about dance? You talked about it a little bit, but can you put a, you know,
like a finer point on it or maybe expand a little bit more?

Makisig: Yeah, I kind of, what, what became important for me in dance is
first my initial experience with it, like what is it doing to my body? How am I
experiencing myself and what happens before I’m dancing and what’s happening
after I’m dancing? Right. And what’s happening during it? So, there’s two,
there’s all of these different phase phases of my experience of, of myself and
my body that, I had to really, it wasn’t like I was. Kind of studying like
scientists, but I was just noticing it. And what I was noticing was that it was
making me feel closer to who I am. Like, you know, learning basically about
the, what my body, my body can do in this moment, what my desires are for it to
be able to do, and what is my current experience of it? Like what, where is it
at, at this moment?  And that’s more
talking about physically, but also you could, I was also experiencing it
emotionally, like what’s my emotional relationship with my body? And through
that, it like, I kind of like became really interested also and aware of my
desires about how I want it to be perceived. And in dance, it’s a lot, you
know, it has a long history of basically people having intense actual, um, body
image of like what dance like force in the western perspective. And this is
another reason why my way of working is trying to go against that. Because
actually my experience of it is super not tainted. Well, it is in some ways
because I was studying dance in this, in in the US which is a western society and
follows that western norm normativity. But it was happening much later in my
life actually, my, my, connection with my body and my, my connection with
movement has happened since I was younger, but it has nothing to do with dance,
right? So, I was just, I was just a very physical child. I was climbing trees a
lot, and now I realize also that’s my first physical practice. That’s how I
learned how to move and to organize my body and to find balance is climbing as
a child. And so anyway, be being, not so much, you know, like buying into that
need to be a physical, like in a physical certain category of body type, you
know, like, it became to me that actually dance is functioning differently. It
was making me feel more connected to my current body. Like, oh, this can, I can
do this, and this can happen too, and I have an ability to see something and
organize my body to do that same thing, but without having a kind of insecurity
about not being able to dance earlier in my life, you know? So, I kind of
wanted to spread that in, in, in a sense like, because I know, especially being
an artist in the Western world. It’s dominated by that kind of value system.
And I know that my value system in dance is just a bit different. Like there’s
a lot more accepting because I, that like dance helped me accept myself
basically. And so, I wanted to continue into that realm of like, what, what
other intersectional identities do I carry in within my body? And how did dance
help me connect to that and learn to love that and accept that and empower it,
and how can maybe the works that come from myself also promote that kind of
perspective and that kind of thinking for the viewers and for the audiences
that’s watching my work.

Gian: Wow. That’s, that’s super, that’s super interesting. And like I,
what I’m hearing also is, you know, this connection between like from yourself
and this inner reflection and really sort of an embodied, understanding of the
self, but then also the tension of sort of the outer world and the perceptions
of that body and you know, who we are and how we relate to one another in terms
of embodiment. So, I’m, I am very, like, I’m interested to hear your
perspective also on, you know, how you relate to others doing your kind of work
or similar work, right. Do you, for example, identify to with other
choreographers or other dancers? Do you feel isolated? Do you feel, feel
connected? Do you feel community? Like, what is your, what is your relationship
to the, to the quote unquote dance world or the dance landscape?

Makisig: Yeah, so I’m just gonna talk about my, my, because I, it’s such a
big world, right? And, I mean, it’s not so big, but it is big enough that I’m
not in all of the different fields of dance that’s existing around Europe. But
my experience in Berlin as like a young new artist living here, I lived, I
moved here like five years ago, but more, stably like here, three years ago.
And so, when I started, I, no one knew me, so I was actually entering projects
as a dancer. And during that time, I did feel, uh, I somewhat, it was hard to
find the people that connected to dance in the way that I did, and in a lot of
ways, I ended up in works of White folks, White choreographers, which has, I don’t
have a problem with, you know, what desires they have and what kind of works
they make. Like I really, of course I question some of the things I’m critical
about it. But, my experience, my direct experience of it is that it, it was
functioning in a value system of needing, of seeing the dancers as. A piece to
this world that they’re creating and that you are somewhat, Either, there’s two
versions. Either your body is completely empty canvas and they put work into
that body and they, and you are, Yeah, you are just entering their world to
help them create it right and physicalize it. And then the other perspective is
that you are, a body like a dancer that has a set of skills and they’re going
to that, that’s going to show the showcase in their work. And, for me, this
felt a lot like, it was definitely a decision I’ve made to. Be dancing in these
works because of course I have to make money and I have to live and I have to
keep my visa. And in order to keep my visa, I have to show that I’m making
money in this field. So that’s, survival, I would say, but also understanding
that I, I needed to go through that experience to, to solidify actually what
are my own value systems and how it took me some time, like of course, two
years, I think I would say. Until I was like, okay, I actually needed to, I
was, I was desiring, and I was needing to create from a different perspective
of either collaborate with people who have the same value system as me or be in
the position of choreographer. And so, I’m setting up this space of like what
it is that we are having as a value system together. Yeah.

Gian: So, this is, that’s, oh, that’s super, super interesting. Um, did
you, did you notice, I, I want to talk about this distinction between the
showcase, dancers or the, the, the bodies we can even say, and then the blank
sort of tabula rasa idea. Did you notice a trend? In the kinds of
choreographers that use this dichotomy to check certain certain artists,
certain, sorry, certain choreographers, um, choose specific kinds of people. Did
you notice certain dancers gravitate towards one or the other? I’m super
curious about that dynamic.

Makisig: Yes. So it’s really crazy. So, what I’m, what I’m noticing right
now is that, of course there’s a lot, a lot of likes, agitating of traditional
way of making work. Right? And so, we’re going from like, you know, the, the
times when dancers are just moving bodies. And then on the other spectrum of
that is the dance, the dancers who are real people and have intersectional
identities and they’re bringing their identities on stage. And then so there’s
some awareness of that, right?  So, but
because we are, people are like, okay, I need to make the work that follows
that desire of people wanting to see more, humanizing more the dancers that
they’re seeing on stage, but bypassing. The kind of education that people need
to learn around why that’s actually important. And then, so what I’m, I’m
finding actually is dancers or, or choreographers, sorry, dancers can be
choreographers, but choreographers who are, who have been funded and have the
money to create, are bypassing that necessary step of understanding why it is
all of a sudden that we need to see dancers as people, and why do we have to
acknowledge their identity as a person of color, as an immigrant, as a Queer
person, as a trans body, as you know, as a Black person. Like, it’s, it’s
really for me, what ends up happening, which definitely happened to me, is that
I got casted. Like it was, I would say it was easier for me to be casted
because people are interested in being, oh, this is a brown body. I quiet, I’m
not really sure, but maybe they are trans, maybe they’re Queer, so I’m gonna
hire that person because that’s, that’s what. The field. That’s the direction
of the field is where the field is going. But then how they treat us and how
they, in the creation process, how they treat us and how they are working with
us is actually in this way. What you were saying, ex extract activation, like
it’s just like taking from, from, from them rather than empowering or understanding
what the boundaries are. You know, like maybe that person actually, you know,
doesn’t want you to exploit them. So, there’s this, I’m oftentimes finding
myself as a dancer, having this intense conversation with choreographers and
being like, it’s it. This is, I feel used. Basically, I’m feeling like you are
using me. I’ve got this job because I’m a brown person. And then when you say
that they get completely, fragile and completely defensive. And offended. Yeah.
And then you’re like, oh, and now I’m in this position of educating you and why
that is problematic. You know, and then you’re just like, put in this cycle of,
you know, and then in the end, you are not only just a dancer, you are having
to be an advocate for yourself, um, advocating for yourself in the team of White
people. And oftentimes this happens, you’re either the token or you are with a
bunch of tokenized people, like let’s say, and it’s still in the, um, minority,
right? So, then you’re also being, having to do the extra labor of educating
people that is unpaid. Yeah. But you’re, you’re required to work exactly the
same amount of, you know, Like energy in terms of like physical work. Yeah. No,
sorry, I’m getting really morbid now, but no,

Gian: No, no. This is great. This is, I mean, this is super important to
talk about and you know, if, if, if one of the messages, if anybody out there
is listening, pay people for their time, like that’s a really important principle,
I think.

Makisig: but also, not just that I can I, can I just add a little bit more? Yeah,
of course. Cause it’s nice for people to hear it and then they’re like, oh,
we’re paying them. Everybody’s paid equally. But understanding that, like when
you are hiring someone and a new who is particularly coming from an identity of
BIPOC, like a black, indigenous person of color and Queer, like whatever an identity
that’s not White, cis Person you are having to do extra work that all the other
identities are not having to do. And compensating for that first, having the
awareness that they’re doing extra labor, whether, whether they’re speaking or
not. Just being in a space that is dominated by White people, you are already
having to do extra work.

Gian: That’s real. Yep. So, pay people for their, pay, people for their
labor maybe actually is more, more an accurate, so it might be emotional labor.
It doesn’t always equal exactly as you say, it doesn’t always equal time. It
could also just be the physical, sort of embodied presence as being an extra,
you know, Thing. This is critical. This is super important. But speaking of, of
critical, I noticed that you mentioned that also the, you know, obviously the
title of this podcast. I noticed that you mentioned, there are moments when
you’re critical of the spaces that you find yourself in. And I just wanted to
ask, what does critical mean to you? When I say the word critical, what comes
up?

Makisig: Wow. So it’s really nice. Like I really. What, when I, have a
question around words, I, you know, English is not my first language, and so I
would look things up like, really, what is this word? What, what exactly does
it mean on the most elementary level and being critical for me? What I
understand is like basically being in, like looking at something like whatever,
an experience or a photo something, and so. Seeing what your direct response to
it is and then understanding that that’s one perspective, and then now seeing
it from another perspective and then looking at it how, seeing something in
multiple perspectives, um, that is outside of your own experience. Right. And
then from there, understanding it clearly enough to be able to maybe get closer
to the expansiveness of what it’s doing from other perspectives than your own.
And once you get into that perspective and then seeing, oh, there’s a difference
there is the person who’s making that, presenting this photo or this work,
aware of it. And if, if you feel that they’re not, or if you feel that you
weren’t aware of it, voicing it, giving it, giving it, body so that people can
see it. And I think this is what I think being critical of something means,
like not just, you know, looking at it from the surface level. Oh wow, it’s
beautiful. And then questioning, oh, you got to the word beautiful. What is
that? Where is that coming from? Like why is it beautiful? What is not
beautiful? You know, what else is it doing besides being beautiful? Yeah. And then the important part of being critical
is not just keeping that perspective in yourself, that finding, but also really
sharing it. For me, I used to think of critical as like something of a
negative, like, oh, someone’s being critical of my work. Especially when I was
like very sensitive and young. When you’re very young and then you make
something, it’s very vulnerable, and then you don’t know yet. You know, you
want everybody to like what it’s that you’re doing, but actually critical is
like also a show of love in a way for me, because that person is telling you
what you’re making that you might be unaware of, and then once you’re aware of
it, you can make a decision whether you want it to stay there or not, right? And
then you can, you know, affect like it be in a bit more, like, it’s weird to
say in control, but like a bit more aware of what it is that you’re putting out
there and being able to see whether you agree with that or not. And if you
agree with it, then continue it and if you disagree with it, and why did it
first end up being there and how can I change that? So, it says exactly what I
wanted to say.

Gian: Yeah, there’s a lot, I mean, there’s a lot about this idea of, I
think you were ref, you were referencing this, right? Calling folks in with
critique as opposed to calling them out. Right? So, if, you know, we, we love
someone, we can hold them to  a higher
standard and say, hey. You know, this, whatever you put out there, be it a
choreographic work or a visual artistic work or an academic work, we can say
like, hey, this has X, Y, Z implications. And that’s an idea of critique or
being critical, but yeah, I think, I mean we could talk about all of these
different etymological layers as well, but I think also it’s really important
that you bring up this idea of, you know, folks working in different,
experience levels of English and like having multiple ideas about what
constitutes critical. I’ve interviewed a couple of folks who, you know, English
isn’t their first language, and of course they have. You know, masterful
command and are beautifully expressing it like you like these ideas of like
what it means. And I just wanted to also de-center the idea that like, there’s
only one definition of words and we can, we only sort of, you know, understand
things from one perspective. Because as you you’re mentioning, like we can kind
of think about, you know, what it is we are critiquing and then what are the
sort of. You know, results or co or implications of that, right. What, what
follows from it? So, I really like, um, you know, that idea that you’re
bringing in with, with, I mean choreography, but also with like, other
politics, right? Like other things, you know, other things. Yeah. Yeah. I also,
so for me, for, because critical, when I was writing this or when I was
thinking about this podcast, I was also thinking like critical as a sense of
important, right? So, if we’re, we, we as beings, right? Uh, if we’re
practicing critique, we can also be seen or seeing ourselves as somehow
important. And I, I wanna know, do you, do you find yourself or does you know,
what does, where does that sit with you? Like, where does that resonate with
you? Are you finding yourself, you know, for example, or at least recognizing
that your voice is more, becoming more important, or is it somehow, are you, do
you still find yourself kind of like on the outskirts? Like where do you, where
do you feel, um, in relation to this idea of critique?

Makisig: That’s a very complex, I think I have a complex answer. I don’t how
we can go and do it.

Gian: No. We love complex answers.

Makisig: But what I hear from that question is like, do you find your
perspective as something that is critical or like important or urgent?

Gian:  Yeah. Yeah. How do you, how
do you find it? Right. Not just, I’m not, I’m not trying to call it into
question, I’m just saying like, you know,

Makisig: How do I find it?
Like it’s really interesting for me. I do feel what? I don’t know how to answer
the question except for when something, let’s say someone is saying something
and it’s starting to feel like, wow, I completely disagree with this. I
definitely can tell. I can see when I choose to not speak where the direction
of what happens goes, which normally it just disappears, like. Everybody in the
room just agrees with it, or when I speak about something, I feel that it
agitates this space. And then I know that it’s going to be a moment where
people pause for a moment and actually discuss what it is that I brought up. Right.
And then in some ways, when it comes like this, I know that it’s important,
right? So, then I’m like, okay. In that moment it really feels important, but
it’s just that what happens for me particularly being a background of being a
migrant most of my life and being a person of color, I have inside of my
myself, the insecurities of that of like internalized, probably racism, right? Internalized
racism of understanding that actually my voice doesn’t have. doesn’t matter, my
voice doesn’t have power. And then so there’s an internalized, silencing that’s
happening.  I would silence myself before
I speak. And then, so that means, you know, maybe it’s not in my intellectual
understanding of myself, but my emotional understanding of myself that I choose
to be silence, silencing myself because I don’t think it’s important, but the
more older I’m getting and the more closer to myself I am, and the more, I
carry less shame inside myself.  I am
finding, and I’m continuing to push myself that to say that actually it’s
important, even if it’s not, just get yourself out there. So, it’s like overcompensating
in a way. I’m like, I am just gonna say it, and then now I’m getting smarter
about it. I’ll say something and I don’t, and I say also that; It’s also
important for me to know that if it’s not important to you to talk about, it’s
okay, but I say it anyway.

Gian: Yeah. Yeah. No, I, so I, I love that idea of putting things out
there because, you know, and I, like, I, like I say, I’m not saying, you know,
I’m not trying to call into question if your voice is important, obviously it’s
super important. And, and you know, it was, it’s, it’s this idea of like, if we
don’t speak, what happens? And I’m reminded of the Langston Hughes poem with,
with the concept of a dream deferred. Like what happens when, you know, our
dreams or our desires or our hopes become swallowed? And something that I
notice as notice you doing as well is this. And it’s something we all do,
right? We talk with our bodies, we talk with our hands, we use gesture. And I,
I really think this is an excellent segue into the next question. because, you
know, when we don’t talk or when we’re anxious or when we’re tired or
something, I, we human beings, you know, tend to kind of shrink into
themselves. And it does have, you know, psychosomatic implications, right? We,
you know, people get stressed out and then get sick, because they aren’t
expressing themselves and they aren’t practicing critique, they aren’t being
critical, in an important sense and also in a, you know, criticism sense. So, I
wanted to ask you about how you use your body in these spaces. Like how does
your body function in everyday interactions, maybe in the choreography space or
maybe in, in, in everyday spaces at home. How does you, how do you use your
body in your in your practice?

Makisig: Wow. Um, for me, in, in like social spaces, especially when there
are conversations that are heated happening, I use my body as an indicator of
like, what am I experiencing? So, I’m like, it’s always giving me information.
It’s always giving me information. If I’m getting triggered, it’s giving me
information If like something feels that I need to speak. Because it’s
agitating something inside of me because I feel like maybe someone is, you
know, saying something that is untrue or, racist or, homophobic or something
like that. Like where, where it’s calling me to action, so I’m using my body.
Yeah, it’s nice. I’m using my body to dictate to indicate within myself to know
when I need to call myself into action. For sure. Nice.

Gian: Do you? So, and like, I think also I, I tap into this as well.
Sometimes I’ll like look at my, I have a Fitbit, you know, and I’ll look at
like, am I, is, there’s this body information telling me something about my
psychic sense. But I’m wondering are there. Aspects of your body that are more
or less critical in your work, Right? So maybe physical aspects or, or societal
sort of identity wide aspects. Are there aspects that are more important, more
critical or more less critical in your, in your practice?

Makisig: Yeah, I think what’s happening now, like I used to be really, um,
critical about what my body can do and cannot do. Like what, I choose to do in
terms of like physical activity, for example. Now it’s, I’m, I’m just getting,
I’m just now getting into, uh, Brazilian jiujitsu and it’s really intense and
interesting and I know that I like to be physical, but you know, one of the
things that kept me from doing in jujitsu, for example, was, That I’m like, oh,
it’s too late for me.I am 33. But, and also other things, you know, and also
other things, which is like, it’s just like touching a bunch of cis White dudes
and how often am I doing that? Like, never. And so, you know, I get critical
about it, of being like, okay, why? And then I’m, and then I find inside myself
being like, oh, actually it’s important to me.I wanna be comfortable because
in, in a way, it’s preparing myself for survival or preparing my body,  and desensitizing maybe or sensitizing both
ways, like desensitizing, meaning that like I’m not too sensitive that I cannot
react,  or I freeze when someone, crosses
my boundaries and touches my body. Especially, you know, coming from that kind
of, identity, cis, white, hetero heterosexual men and so yeah, like I, I’m kind
of like more and more, um, letting myself be in that uncomfortable space of
taking up jujitsu for that other perspective of being like, okay, actually this
is good for me. I need to know that. I want to be able to access my body and
not be in a shock mode, for example. So yeah, I can think of it like this. It
could also be sometimes, like I, I do find myself like, more and more physical
these days, which is really interesting. Like I am very moving body for sure. I
find myself. As a choreographer, because dancing is a work that I, in my free
time, I’m not dancing, I’m actually doing all the other activities. I’m, I’m
doing martial arts for example. Like, I’m, I’m actually finding comfort in
doing something that I’m not abstracting or I’m not seeing as work or like, I’m
not going, oh, what this, what’s the implications of this? Like, I go in and
out of like, I actually am doing it because I just wanna be physical. I’m doing
this because, you know, which is separate from, I’m doing this because I am
creating something that will say something and is important for others to
perceive in this way. And really, you know, being in a working mode. So, it’s
clear to me when I’m doing one or the other and it, it’s important to
differentiate so I don’t, so it, yeah, it, it is clear when I’m working and not
working.

Gian: Nice. That’s, uh, yeah, that’s super important. I think we often
forget, especially now in, in the current moment of timespace compression, and
everybody is just working all the time and connected all the time. So, I think
it’s, I think it’s super important. So, you, so you talked a little bit about
your, the aspects of the body that you find important for your work in your
body, but what about other people’s bodies? I think you touched a little bit on
this idea of like, not wanting to be or being, having issue with being touched
by White cishet men. Which, same, so what other aspects of others’ bodies Right?
Are important when you’re in, in your field in choreography or if you’re, you
know, for example, doing martial arts.What about sort of other folks?

Makisig: Yeah, I, this is, I feel like this is the deepest closest to my
goals  as a human, um, of like how my, how
am I creating a space for other bodies, especially because when I’m making
work, I’m rarely making work as a solo body. I’m working with others and I’m
often choosing to be in collaboration. Oftentimes I’m collaborating with my partner,
Anya Cloud, but which is also like, you know, she’s a cis White woman, but we have
a lot of alignment in our value system of how to work with people. And, but I’m
choosing oftentimes, because, you know, this is my community and so I choose to
work with queer bipo people and I’m choosing to work with them in the way that
I would like to be experiencing spaces. So, what, what I was talking to you
about, like in these spaces that are super unaware of how they are being,
discriminating me as a person of color, for example, or as a queer person. So,
I like to create spaces where people feel age like that. They have agency like
that they, their, that what their needs are matters and their artistic senses
and who they are as people and artists and how is the work enlivening that, how
are my, how is my work enlivening these parts of themselves and how do I not
take it from them of being like, oh, I made that. You know, like, I am, I think
that it’s rare that we are making as choreographers. It’s rare that we are, um,
showing just our art. Like this is my, this is my choreography. Like I would
never do that because I know for a sense that in my work, I am interested in
people showing who they are as artists within that work. So, empowering them to
make decisions for themselves. If it feels like they are doing something that
is disembodied, they’re doing something that’s not their work, like, that’s not
coming naturally from them. I try to shy away from that. So, I’m like, okay,
what, what feels good for you? Like, I want people to feel, to, to sense into
their body and seeing, is this true to me? So oftentimes I really, I’m
interested in the dancers to empower themselves in a way to be able to say that
actually I don’t want to be doing this section, for example, like, this doesn’t
feel good for my body, or like, maybe this is too hard for them. Then I’m like,
okay, then what feels easier for you? Like, how can you exist in that? Can you
exist in that? In a different way, or do you wanna be completely omitted from
that?  So, in the making of the
choreography, it’s oftentimes this kind of conversations I’m having with people
like, first I’m describing to them what is my goal and like what is the work
about Right? Quote unquote, because. I don’t know. It could be about whatever I
say, but when people experience it, it’s different. Right. So, I am coming into
terms with that, knowing that that’s completely always there, but that the
dancers also understand that they can inside of, inside of the work, make their
own decisions. That they are completely like, yes, I want them to make
decisions. I want them to tell me when something feels good and not good, and
we can be in a live conversation around that, so that the work doesn’t die
actually. So, when it’s being performed, it’s real people you’re seeing there
in their own craft, in their own power. So, I hope that’s clear.

Gian: Yeah, that’s great. No, that makes a lot of sense. Um, I’m super,
I’m really, I very much relate to this idea of, um, relationality and not
wanting to, you know, take from people and to, you know, especially in whatever
work we do, I think, uh, no person is a vacuum, right? No person exists in a
vacuum, rather, no person is an island. So that kind of thing where, you know,
where, where we exist as, you know, in a, in a community rather than just one
sort of lone genius, which is very much like the western paradigm, right? so
yeah. No, that’s really cool. This is, this very much relates, we’ve been
segueing very nicely into all of these, into all of these sections that I have
for the, for the questions. But I’m curious also in your work, I see a strong
sort of vision for how you want to do it, but what developments, do you see in
your field relating to embodiment or relating to this notion of, of
relationality, for example, what do you, what would, what do you see and what
would you like to see?

Makisig: Yeah. I was kind of nervous about this question.

Gian: Oh, no. Okay. I’m excited actually.

Makisig: Yeah. Just because, you know, for me, I, I feel like some days it
depends, you know, like, I don’t wanna be so critical that like, there I’m just
like this grumpy choreographer or something.  But I, so I want, I wanted to start with is
that like, I am in the practice of all of the things I said, which means that
I’m not perfect at it. Right? So, what I’m saying, oh yeah. Like I really wanna
keep my dancers, the dancers,  weird. See?
again, my dancers like this word of my dancers, like it’s you, you don’t own
them. There’s not a kind of owning, right? So, I stumble into things like this.
For me, when I say that I want to keep people alive in the way that I’m
working, that is, like a path where I’m sometimes really good at it and
sometimes I’m not. And I need these conversations between us to happen in order
for that to work. So, we’re taking care of the space together, right? So, I’m
not just like in charge the whole time. Cuz also like in that practice of being
in charge is another way of colonizing. So that’s another perspective that I
don’t wanna be working in. So, what I, that, that’s why I’m, I’m being a bit,
um, nervous about this answer, is because I think that we can practice even
more. This is this, this is what I want to answer, which means that our field
has a lot to go. So, a lot more learning to go. It’s a long way to get to the
point, to the place where I’m like, wow. Like we are here now. I am definitely
finding artists who are young, Queer, BIPOC artists that are, finding their
voice and empowering me. As the same identity to create the same works. So,
like, we’re kind of like re feeding off of each other, like, wow, like you just
did that amazing. And the next thing I’m making my own thing. And then you hear
someone say, wow, you, that’s amazing. You, you are empowering me to do this.
And then so I feel like we are slowly, slowly getting there. Um, but again,
those experiences I told you was only two years ago. So that’s there, there’s
like such a split, you know, there are like massive amounts of works being
made. That for me feels like I am so curious about the people in there and I
feel like that’s not happening. I feel like they are not being empowered in the
work. I’m experiencing that a lot. I’m seeing that a lot, especially for works
that are coming from people who are not, Queer, Black, people of color. Like,
it’s just, I feel like somehow these white choreographers have a lot more work
to do there, and I’m oftentimes finding that, you know, and so I’m, I’m also
finding it in, in people of color, works for sure, but somewhat how, because
it’s less, common. I think it’s because we are really seeing, yeah, seeing
like, okay, we are existing in a westernized form anyway. We are existing in a
field that is dominated by White people. And so, when we’re given that one
sliver of a chance to create work, we’re making work that. Is going to be
speaking to experiences like ours. So, I don’t know, like it’s a quite a
dilemma, you know, like how do you get a white person to find the same value
system to be, to find it important to create a space that is actually
inclusive, to create a space that’s not racist when it’s not their experience. So,
there’s a lot of education there that needs to happen. So that’s my answer, I
feel. Yeah,

Gian: No, that resonate mean I care about it. I mean, I, I struggle with
this on a daily basis. I think, especially as somebody in education space. Part
of this research, the, the goals of this research project are to tackle some of
the questions you’re answering. Specifically, around, you know, Folks in
majority positions and their relations to other folks who have been
minoritized. So I think, yeah, there’s a lot there and I, I really appreciate,
you know, the answers and the work that you’re doing. So, for me, I guess
really the last kind of couple of questions are kind of intertwined, I would
say. The first one would be, do you have any questions or reflections or things
you want to say to me? And do you have any sort of ending words, any ending
messages that you would like to put out there? for the audience, so it could be
combined, it could be, you could leave one behind, however you like to, to wrap
this, this really nice interview up.

Makisig: Yeah. I would say, Gian, that I’m just very happy to be given the space
to speak. Like I think again, for me, when, when you offered it to me, I was
really like, oh no, like I’m not sophisticated in my speaking enough to be
heard, you know? And so, I feel honored, and I feel, Yeah, excited about, be being
given the space and, and I would like to extend my gratitude about that. So yes.

Gian:  of course, yeah.

Makisig: I don’t, yeah, I don’t have a question.. I feel, I just feel like
excited about the fact that this is existing and that you are doing the work
that you’re doing, and I want to just say, like, affirm that and say, thank you
for that and please continue. Yeah, and for the last words, I’d like to just be
able to say that, yeah, I don’t wanna end in a negative note. Like, I really don’t
like, I really do love people choosing to be in this field because it is hard
to be in this field, particularly to be a person of color and to be a Queer
person. You know, it’s, it’s hard to choose to be in this field, and it’s
great. Thank you for going and find your community. Find the people, find the
other people that empower you, you know, and, and yeah, I really, from this
conversation that we had, I really appreciate this. Focus on like how, what’s
your relationship with your body and how is it telling you to. Be in action,
like to speak up to, make something out there and to yeah. To communicate to
others, to the world what you are about. And so, yeah, I feel, I feel. Excited
about this conversation.

Gian: Nice. Yeah, I think that’s the, I think that’s the, uh, the note we
can end on the theme of speaking up. I think it’s really important. And you
did, you, you did a great job of speaking up in this interview and I, yeah, I
wanna say thank you as well to you for, for agreeing. And I guess, yeah, on
that note, we can, um, you know, end it here. Obviously, the conversation will
continue, continue between Makisig and myself. But also, the audience out
there, if you are listening, please comment, please engage, please interact. I
wanna hear your thoughts on our thoughts and on their thoughts. So, please,
yeah, let me know. Let us know. And, so I guess we’ll just say, we’ll just say
goodbye for now. Um, and thanks for listening. Yeah. Okay.

Makisig: Thank you.

Gian: Yep. Sure. Bye-bye. Okay.

w/ Niki Linkov @niki.linkov on Instagram and NikiLinkov89 on Facebook, Head Coach of Fitness Momentum

Gian: Hey everyone. My name’s Gian Hernandez. I am a postdoctoral researcher at the University of Amsterdam in the Amsterdam’s School of Communication Research. The guest for today’s podcast, critical Beings is someone I’ve personally worked with on my own fitness journey. He is a personal trainer and influencer and head coach at Fitness Momentum and online fitness program. Please join me and welcoming Niki Linkov. Hey, Niki.

Niki: Hey guys, so happy to be here. I guess, uh, some exciting stuff we’re gonna be talking about today. But I guess you have your own plan, so I’ll let you get started and then

Gian:  Yeah, no worries.

Niki: we can start to let conversation going.

Gian: Yeah, and it’s, it’s really a conversation, so, you know, obviously if we derive, if we kind of derivate from things or if we go in a different direction, I’m, I’m more than happy to have that. If you wanna ask me questions, I’m super down. But I just cut. Yeah. Is there, first of all, is there anything that you would like to add to this introduction? Is there anything else that you want to center about what you do and your work and your life?

Niki: Gotcha. Maybe I can give a little bit of  more of a background about myself, how it all started, where I’m right now. How I got here. Yeah. I’m gonna keep it quick. I’ve started training when I was 14. I’m 34 right now, but there’s been a lot of highs and lows. And I’ve gone through like working with all kinds of different trainers, different guys. Fitness for me was a hobby for a huge portion of my life. Then eventually I started working with a coach, Mario Tomic. So, basically that was the connection between us, the two of us as you know, and a hobby transferred into me getting certified, getting a little bit more invest in terms of fitness. Started helping my coach at the time. Mario, we still work together with him. And long story short, we have a separate program, which I’m the head coach of Fitness Momentum, and we’re focusing on helping guys in their 30s for the most part, 35 plus people who are either, I would say in the position that they’ve just started a family, maybe have a family, maybe one or two kids, or in that transition point where they’re a little bit more, they’ve settled down and they’re having that long term approach and focusing primarily with is my knowledge base is on fat loss specifically getting rid of that gut that they would see it. Cause I don’t have it, but you get the idea. So fat loss and longevity and sustainability now when it comes to fitness, and that has been my own experience with this. Going through different phases, working with different guys past a certain age, what I’ve noticed is that. It’s not so much about getting jack, getting apps, getting super lean, like the typical bodybuilder that you would see on the cover of a magazine, like just veins everywhere looking crazy shredded. It’s more about, it’s cool, I’m not gonna lie. It’s cool to be that guy. Of course, you can take into account genetics than all the drugs that those, a lot, those people are taking. So, I’m not gonna talk about how realistic this is, but past a certain age, and for a lot of guys it’s, it’s about finding that nice balance between fitness. You know, again, it’s not about the look itself. Sure it feels better to not have a big belly, but it’s about feeling, feeling healthy and staying safe in the gym because as you get older, there’s gonna be some shorter issues. There’s gonna be some injuries. Now there’s gonna be kids. Start thinking about what, what are the, what message am I sending to my kids? What message am I conveying by just being out of shape, not having energy to play with my kids, to be a responsible father. A lot of the guys that we work with, they are super busy. Like we’ve got entrepreneurs, we’ve got people who have like one or two jobs, a side hustle, whatever happens to be. So, all of this is energy. Like you need to be able to wake up in the morning, get stuff done. And get more stuff done, and at some point, hit the gym, and then provided you have time, spend some time with the kids, spend some time with the family, actually enjoy life and all this sort of energy. So, my personal. I would say passion and focus is mostly on that sustainability and making sure that all of these different areas of life they work. So, fitness, it’s not the goal. It is sort of like the medium, not, not even the medium, like how are you gonna achieve your life, where you have that nice balance, things are happening, you’re not getting overwhelmed. You do have the energy staying healthy.  And, sure. Having abs, yeah, it’s cool for a lot of guys, it’s a nice challenge for the first time of their life getting abs, but it’s not like I want to be going on a stage super shredded, and so on. So hopefully that was not too long.

Gian: No, it’s great. It’s great. We welcome all input. So, what I’m hearing from you is that, you know, your work is about, is also quite holistic, right? Like it’s not just about, you know, for example just muscle building or just fat loss, but it’s really about kind of being able to use your body, for your life, right? Because we have bodies in order to experience life. Is that something that resonates with you or.

Niki: In a sense, by the way, I’m gonna be looking there and there because I have, I have my screen there, and my camera there, so it may look like, ok, I’m over the place. No worries. Uh, when I talk, I try to talk to the camera. Holistic. I’d say you; you could say that that’s not how I personally would describe it. And I feel like when it comes to holistic, depending on who you’re talking to, it may have more of a negative connotation. Like some people are gonna be like, nah, holistic, not my thing. I do science based. It’s not necessarily the case, I would say there’s a lot of science and there’s a lot of reasoning and I’m talking to like actual researchers like yourself. Recently I talked to somebody who is in the Mayo Clinic. I forgot which state, uh, Illinois maybe. So, some really, really smart people, researchers. And it is all based on science, but there is also the holistic approach where a lot of times science doesn’t apply to the, or rather, the research may not necessarily apply to the individual. So, to give an example. They have a study, so maybe you’re more familiar with what I’m talking about. That’s a study. Yeah. Let’s see. 30 different people, they’re gonna feed them a certain type of food and they’re gonna notice that 28 out of those people get like one type of result, and two people are gonna get sort of like a completely different result and then they’re gonna conclude, you know what? For most people, this type of food gives them X result. All about those two exceptions. Now this is the individual for them, that general, what does. What a research study is gonna summarize is not gonna apply. So, this is where the individualization comes into play, and this is where you combine science. Like I would say in my own experience, could be totally wrong about this, science and research. It’s a starting point. It gives you sort of a direction where you headed. But then once you start going, you need to get input from the individual and see does it actually work? Is it justified? Does the science apply to, or rather, does this, what science finds applies to this individual? So, it’s more of a starting point. It is definitely science-based, but there’s also the holistic approach where combine them together. And ultimately, I would say, you know, I’m probably biased when it comes to this. Results are what matters at the end of the day. Doesn’t matter what I think. Doesn’t matter what you think, if you do X and you get y, that’s it. The result matters. And then based on that result, of course we can draw some conclusions and we may need to refine your approach.

Gian: Yeah, I mean, yeah. Makes sense what you saying. So, with the topic of the podcast being around critical, and sort of the notion of what critical means. What does, what does? When I say the word critical, what does that mean to you? What do you think critical means? Maybe in your field as well?

Niki: Yeah, so I’m gonna be completely honest. Like you put me on the spot, I’m not a hundred percent sure what critical means, like in terms of the dictionary.

Gian: No,It’s open. Yeah. It’s really your interpretation, everything. Like there are no wrong answers, right?

Niki: Gotcha. So, I would say for me, the first thing that comes to mind is more of a negative thing, like critique as in, oh shit, like your heart rate’s getting a little bit elevated, like, I’m gonna hear something that I’m probably not gonna, not gonna like, and tense up a little bit. That’s the first thing that comes to minds. More of that negative feeling tensing up, but then also critical. I would say it’s more of a way to give feedback, uh, precise feedback, and sort of like get straight to the point and try to uncover what is happening. Like critique could also be a good thing. Um, and yes, it may not make you feel good, especially when you’re working with clients like me as a coach. So, I’m a coach and a client, so I got a couple of coaches that I’m working with. I do get critique from them, going be honest. Sometimes it sucks. Like you send them a video of what you’re doing, you show them your diet, and they’re like, there are some things they have to work. So being on the receiving end, it, it, it’s sucks a little bit, but I know they’re right and this is the, this is how you grow. So, this is, that’s what comes to mind, like critique in the sense of being on the receiving end as a coach working with other people, you also have to think like, how do I package, it’s not necessarily critique, but my feedback. So it’s still valuable to the person, but at the same time, doesn’t. Make them defeated. It’s not like, oh, snap, you’ve, you’ve really messed up your diet, like what you’re doing there terrible. Like your squad looks like, I don’t wanna swear, but it looks really, really bad. What, what you’re doing there. So, you don’t wanna make people feel bad, and don’t wanna make them, that they’re actually not achieving something.So, you need to still put sort of a positive spin, but have them learn from their mistakes and have them improve so they keep on going. And there’s a lot of nuances here who you’re talking to. Like some people like really straight talk and just get to the point, like tough love kind of. Some people are like this, and you can definitely, be very, very blunt with some people you have to be a little bit more sparing in terms of phrasing and everything.

Gian: Yeah, no, I and I hear a lot of really, really great things. Like, so from the first thing like, you know, critique is, is how we grow. It might not be very pleasant at times, but it’s also useful feedback in some ways. And for me, I mean, critical critique, all of these things, criticism, there’s a, there’s a difference, right? Critique and criticism, and all of that stuff. I also think, you know, critical means can be, can be important, right? So, we have like maybe a critical intervention. This is something that’s, that’s like a, a critical sense of something that is like integral and sort of foundational. But I, I really like, you know, uh, how you talk about it, especially in the fitness world when critique means, you know. For example, how we do things how, like form for example, forms or diet. Oh, by the way, you can totally swear. Like this is, this is a swearing podcast, so no worries. So, I’m wondering, um, when, for example, you’ve already talked about a couple of, uh, instances where critique or being critical comes into play in your work, but when do you find yourself, being most critical? So in what situations where you do you practice critique the most?

Niki: With a client or…?

Gian: In general, with yourself, with a client, uh, with, uh, a coach, you know, giving feedback back, right? There’s any?

Niki: Yeah, I would say me as working with other people and learning from other people, I would divide into sort being on the receiving end and being on the person who’s critiquing and being on the receiving end. I feel like it’s very important to be able to handle the feedback and knowing that sometimes feel like you’re doing amazing. Just the other day, I got some, uh, critique on something that I did. it was fitness specific in a sense, and it didn’t feel good. I’m gonna be honest. It’s a skill. It’s like gives the great part of fitness and training is that you can apply this sort of like muscle resistance training to the mental aspect and being able to handle critique well because you understand that this is a, this is stress, like lifting weights, stress on your body, but because of this stress, you can adapt, and you can grow.

So, in the same way, sometimes you, you just have to be calm yourself like a kid. Just, just give it to me like straight, like what did they mess up? What I can do better? And, that’s sort of like the feeling that I get sometimes you just tense up a little bit and you’re like, ah, shit. Like you, what is it you gonna say? Like, do I do well? Do I do bad? What I can do better? And sometimes you realize like, consciously, logically, understand that Okay. This definitely makes sense but doesn’t mean that you’re gonna feel great when somebody looks at what you did and like, no, this whole thing, just start over. Like it’s not, this workout’s not gonna work, or this thing that you think in terms of diet or the food that you’ve prepared, scrap this. So, it’s part of the learning process, but we grow through adversity. So, this is more on the receiving end, and I’m pretty much okay with, I do ask for critique myself. That’s more of a personality thing. I know. What I respond best to just gimme the all the bad stuff. Sure. Gimme what I’m doing Well. But I mostly respond better to negative feedback as opposed to positive feedback cuz it tells me what I can improve. Now when you’re working with somebody else.  I feel with coaching, and this is probably not specific to fitness, just in general, it you have to be a little bit of, I always messed up these words, psychologist, psychiatrist, like the person who can analyze, other people’s behavior.Make sense?

Gian: Yeah.

Niki: So, this comes through actually working with somebody for a while or maybe doing a bit of an assessment beforehand, so you know how to talk to them and know how to address them. There is always the case where I’m, um, because of my character, because of who I am, I’m always gonna be communicating in a certain way, which means that with certain individuals, it’s just, it’s not gonna click. Like I’m, I’m usually a pretty nice guy. I’m not like super blunt. So, if you need me to be blunt, that is how you respond to, I’m not your guy and probably we’re not gonna have a great connection. It’s the nature of, you know, human beings. But general, I try to gauge who I’m talking to and how to communicate. Now, in terms of when I have the most critique, I would say it’s the more free, the most frequent thing that happens when I have to critique is when people are posting their videos from the gym. So, something that we did with you. If you go in the gym, obviously I do online coaching. I’m not there with you in person physically, so what I rely on is the data that we’re collecting that people are sending me, and so on a spreadsheet. But also, I need to see how you do the exercises because otherwise I’m looking at numbers and it doesn’t tell me anything. So, this means that people take their phone, they record what they’re doing in the gym and then they post online. And this is probably scary, like being on the receiving end where I’m gonna give you feedback. And this means a lot of critique. And of course, because most people are no experts when it comes to this mean too, of course. But chances are I know probably a little bit more than most guys. If you’re in the gym and you don’t know what you’re doing, then you’re gonna get feedback. And in a sense, this is the, the most amount of critique that I’m giving, like almost every time, if you, if you do post something online, I’m gonna find something that could be done better. Doesn’t mean that you suck, it doesn’t tell me anything about who you are, but however you address it, you don’t wanna discourage people where like they’ve posted their deadlift for three consecutive weeks or four consecutive weeks, and it’s always like something to improve. At some point you need to tone it down a little bit and still recognize the small wins, especially if somebody’s getting discouraged. They think like, I cannot lift, or there’s some problem. So, this is probably the more frequent time when I’m critiquing because it’s almost every day the rest of the time it’s usually something a little bit more random where people like text me on their phone, I get a message and they show me what they did and I have to like to give them, I wouldn’t say it’s that much critique. People are just generally asking questions and I give them, um, I give them feedback, or I try to answer those questions. But yeah, it’s rarely critique over chat or when we’re on the call on a Zoom call or something like that. Okay.

Gian: Okay, and so I hear yeah, there’s, there’s multiple relationships there. You, so you talk about, you know, with coaching and with clients, do you ever find yourself being critical of yourself?

Niki: Well, sure, but I guess that’s a personality thing. So, I can talk about myself, but I would rather zoom out and talk about general, like people, we, people like everybody’s gonna view the world. Differently so that the way we perceive the world is very, very different. So, I can share my own experience, but that doesn’t mean that it’s gonna apply to somebody else. So, I’m definitely critiquing myself, but I don’t beat myself up. I’m generally very high self-esteem type of guy. So, it might sound terrible, but in my head, I, I’m the shit I’m like, no matter what I do, like I’m the man, I got this, I’m not gonna beat myself up and be like, oh, I suck. I’m not gonna wake up in the morning and I feel terrible about things could have been better. I’m like, what I do, it’s awesome. It’s gonna get into the top. I don’t beat myself up, but I do know a lot of people, especially if I’ve seen with other coaches as well, where there’s a little doubt. And I guess this also comes down to your level of expertise in a particular field. Say for example, when I was starting out as a coach, I was very much critiquing myself and I felt bad and I felt like I was a failure, or I felt like I was a fraud or I was, um, like the imposter syndrome as a general rule. Like again, I’m more of a high esteem, high self-esteem person, but I’ll still beat myself up.  Because I was not feeling like I can fill in those big shoes and feeling those expectations as you get more experience, like obvious things are gonna change. But the guess two key things I’m getting into is, your personality, how you generally view life, and your, I guess there’s a hormonal there’s a psychological thing, and so on. Basically, who you are and then also what we’re talking about. I can be very confident in one field. But not so confident in another field. And it is also context like there are people, actually was in Amsterdam like a few months ago. I was surrounded by people who are much, much smarter and more experienced than me. I’m talking like world class. Super cool guys. I felt dumb. I’m like snap, I don’t know. Anything compared to these guys. So, in, in that particular field, yeah, I was critiquing myself quite a lot. But then when I’m talking to, let’s see a client, which of course they’re paying me for me because I have more expertise in that specific field, I don’t feel the same way. I feel more confident. So, there’s, we are, that is the specific field and there’s the context. Same guy in different situation that I feel completely different.

Gian: Yeah, that’s true. It’s all, it’s all very, very contextual. So, I really, I’m interested also in this notion of the field. So, we were talking about critique and we’re talking about, and obviously you’re in various fields, you’re in sort of training, but then there’s also sort of bit more science-oriented things, and all the online space as well that can be considered a different field that one might need experience in. Do you find yourself may being, seeing developments in the field that you would critique or developments in the field that you think are positive? What do you, where do you think the field is going? Or do you critique the field?

Niki: Which field? fitness?

Gian: Whichever field is most important to you. I would say maybe fitness or maybe online fitness or maybe, yeah, whatever. Whatever you think resonates.

Niki: Can you just expand the question a little bit?

Gian: So, do you find yourself being critical of, let’s say, other people who do the things that you do? Other online coaches, let’s say?

Niki: Gotcha, I used to be more critical for sure. It would get me emotional, but I feel like that’s part of the growth process. And this is true for any field. Like in the beginning, you don’t know anything, so you don’t really care. Then you start. Gaining some knowledge and you feel like, ah, I know this. Like I’ve uncovered this huge, big secret and start being very critical because what you think, you have like this limited view of the world and you’re like, oh, my thing is the right thing, and this guy doesn’t know anything. So, this is when you’re probably most critical, but then you start growing. You understand that, okay, there’s a lot more things that I don’t know, and you realize that there’s more than, I don’t know, than actually what I do know. So, then you become more critical of yourself. So, it’s natural for transition where you’re not critical of anybody. Then you become critical towards other people than towards yourself, and then you find this nice balance where you are. I don’t know much. Most people don’t know a lot either, so we’re all in the same boat. And you become more open, you become less critical. Sometimes you talk to somebody who has like a completely different view on the same topic, you know? Like that person could be, right? I mean, I know my stuff. He knows his stuff. I mean, obviously, you know, there’s a lot of contexts. There’s a lot of nuances. So, you’re not critical at all. But you’re more like questioning in this, uh, level of curiosity as well. And you need to get to that point in order to actually become really good at something because you can always learn from other guys. Like, uh, give you an example, just the, yesterday there were two kids, probably 15 or 16 in the gym, and one guy was hanging on a bar, just hanging, and the other guy was pulling his ankles. I was like, what’s this? He was doing something to his ankles. I’m like, I, I don’t get this. Like, I, I got curious. Like, they’re 16. I don’t know what they, they know. Maybe they’re just like having fun. I have no idea. Maybe they seen something online that I haven’t seen. So, I was like really interested. I was even contemplating going there and asking them like, what do you guys are doing? I’m legit interested. I don’t like…what would go through my mind in the past would be like, these guys are just fooling around. They don’t know anything. Now I’m like, I don’t know. Maybe I can learn something from those two kids. Maybe they’ve done something, maybe they’ve seen something that I don’t know about, and maybe it’s something that is legit, or at the very least I can try and see if it works.  Again, that’s kinda like the natural evolution, I would say for any field at some point.

Gian: Okay. And did you, what, I’m curious to hear the end of the story. What were they doing?

Niki: I got no idea. I think what I see, what they were doing, one guy was doing squats and he had the heels elevated. He was using weight plates, uh, which I think he saw from somebody else doing the gym. Maybe me, I don’t know. So, I think maybe he was working on his ankle mobility or maybe his ankles were stiff. Because the other guy was like literally twisting and pulling his ankle, so.

Gian: Okay

Niki: That’s my guess. Yeah.

Gian: Yeah. Ok.

Niki: Sure.

Gian: Interesting. Ok, so you talked a little bit about, you know, curiosity and, and being curious as some, how people develop in the field. Let’s say the field, broadly speaking. We could be talking about fitness, we could be talking about, you know, a lot of different things.  But so, do you notice any trends in the field in any field that you find relevant? Do you notice any kind of directions that people are going in, whether positive or negative?

Niki: There are certain trends. Yeah. I would say the stuff that was, that’s probably true for almost everything, but kind of like at some point, go full circle. When I was a kid growing up, it was like all the bodybuilders that bro splits, and then at some point it was like all science based, at least in terms of what I’m exposed to. So maybe things don’t change, it’s just that I’m, I’m focused on different things. Now it’s more about health and high protein or maybe like, everything has to be like super complicated science proven. There has to be research and so on. So now we’re going through this phase where it’s so science based and research and labs, and it has to be justified, uh, not justified, but it has to be tested and whatnot. So, we’re more in this phase. At some point it’s probably gonna go, oh, intuitive. Sort of like the bro split again. So yeah, it’s kind of like going for different phases. But when it comes to fitness, I mean, we’re not gonna reinvent anything new. It’s always gonna come down to, you gotta watch what you eat, you gotta eat mostly healthy food and you gotta do the training.You gotta lift some heavy stuff, do some cardio. That’s it. Like these are the basics. I feel like what does change is not so much the basics and what actually works. It’s how we convey that information and the package that we wrap, how we wrap up the package. So, we’re gonna do keto because whatever, keto, I don’t know, it’s trending or we’re gonna do like vegan, just some kind of a diet there, which a lot of times is just like sort of a marketing and a delivery tool to still get to color deficit and to get you to train.Of course, there’s also, I guess something that we’re also going through is there’s a lot of focus on individuality, which I’m not saying it’s a bad thing, it’s just that that’s hyper focused on this thing where it’s probably the result of just this mixture of cultures that we have nowadays where we have people from different countries, different backgrounds, different beliefs, and we have trying to accommodate for everybody. In a sense, that’s like the individual approach, which for people like me, that’s a good thing because we can hyper focus on one type of individual, one type of problem. So that’s probably trending right now. I would say more the sort of like a very individual hyper focused approach. And to give an example, you could be, I don’t know, 20-year-old lesbian who is into video games and also power lifting. I mean, that’s probably a ton of those. And you’re gonna have a coach that’s gonna specifically niche down for working with these types of individuals, which is awesome because it’s a very small market. Not a small market, but a very, very hyper focused, hyper target. And you can find the guy that’s gonna work for you.Well, let’s say 15, 20 years ago. I mean, sure. It could be like 20-year-old lesbian video games, whatnot, power lifting. You’re still gonna work with just your typical par for the course. It’s gonna be the same, same guy everybody’s working with. It’s not gonna get like the same connection maybe in a sense. So again, that’s, that’s I would say a good thing.And then the other one is the, uh, what was the science-based approach? Not sure if this answers your, your question.

Gian: Yeah, definitely, definitely. Yeah. I’m just interested in the trends and what I’m hearing is, you know, there’s a different way of, you, you talked about packaging. We could even talk about communication, right? So how, how things are communicated. So yeah, it’s definitely, there’s definitely a lot going on there. Um, okay, cool. So, I wanted to also, so this podcast is really interested in “Critical”, but also this notion of being right is a Critical Being. That’s why, why it came together. And part of that is about “embodiment” and how people kind of use their bodies. So, the other episodes that I’m recording are people that are in very different sort of physically oriented fields, right? So, we have a yoga studio, owner, dancer, powerlifter, like all of these different things. And so, I’m asking everybody, so how they use their body, like how do you use your body in everyday life? What is important about your body that helps you to do your work, for example?

Niki: Gotcha. This is specific question towards me as an individual.

Gian: Yeah, yeah.

Niki:  Regardless of my field of work.

Gian: Well, I mean, it’s you, specifically,  so yes.

Gian: Your field of work. So, like what, what is,

Niki:  Gotcha.

Gian: As an online coach, how is your, your body helping you or hindering you even.

Niki: Mm-hmm. I would say, the way I look at it, embodiment; Embody is, that’s my specific thing that I’m focusing on, which may be not necessarily this is a liitle bit disconnect of I do in my life as opposed to how I approach work. I’m gonna separate this a little bit.

Gian: Yeah.

Niki: So, in terms of how I, me as an individual I use my body is I want to be able to move pain free to be able to…Because when I started training, there was always an ache, shoulder, wrists, knees. There was always pain and my process was, you know what, if I’m training, there has to be some kind of an ache. There has to be some kind of a pain. Like your joints are gonna get beat up. That’s just the nature of what you’re doing. Now I came to realize that this is not, shouldn’t be the case. Yeah, there’s gonna be some wear and tear, there’s gonna be some issues every now and then, but it shouldn’t be to a point where your health is deteriorating, like the, the main goal of movement should be to be able to move better and pain free over time. So, I would say for me, this is a big focus. The other focus is creating awareness and what I’m currently focusing on, hyper focusing right now is to get real good connection with muscles. Mostly focused on muscles, not specifically like the. The big stuff, like the actual aesthetic part, but even muscles like breathing, like being able to control my breathing, being able to just, sit down and know that like, for example if I sit down right now, just take a second to feel like, okay, there’s some tightness here and I know why it is because of the camera. Kind of like trying to look straight there. So, there’s gonna be some tightness in my traps that I’m feeling. There’s some tightness in my lower back cuz of how I’m sitting. There’s a little bit of slouching over. So, tightness here. More like on the backside. Uh, also with my breathing because I had a meal, I can definitely feel that.So, I’m working on creating that awareness and when you do have that awareness, you can move better, and you can deal with some of those issues. So obviously there’s tightness in my traps. Like if this thing continues, like maybe I’m gonna get a headache. If I’m sitting in front of this camera for five hours, I’m probably gonna get a headache and I know there’s gonna be some consequences. So just first off, being aware. And then based on that awareness, I can take action in order to make sure that I move better, and that I feel better because that accumulation of improper movement, improper posture, is gonna lead to some issues. And I would say I’m pretty happy with where I’m right now with my own training and movement because I, there’s less issues now. I don’t really fear high risk of injury at this point in time. I’m definitely getting like good simulation in the gym, like being able to. Contract my muscles. And of course, it’s more in terms of hypertrophy growing, more muscle. It definitely helps for sure. So, quality of movement, I guess is a big thing for me and that’s why I’m focusing with my body as well and creating that awareness. And it’s not always about movement, like sometimes, probably to relate to the body, but say for example, you know, sometimes you feel angry, you feel depressed, you feel lonely for no reason, like everything’s going amazing. If you have like those sensations and about sitting down and being like, okay, I feel a certain way. And being able to backtrack and realize what is causing this. And sometimes it could be, I eat a meal, which is funny enough, like a lot of people don’t realize this, but you may eat a certain meal that may make you depressed. Like, I know for me gluten, for example, if I overate on bread and pasta, I’m gonna get really agitated and frustrated for no real reason. And it took me a lot of time to realize that. So, awareness is a big thing for me. And then quality of movement and quality of life. Trying to get away from pain and be able to preserve my body until a very old age. Now with clients, I guess, it’s sort of a different thing where the way I use my body is to be able to also understand how my body functions, which is gonna translate into understanding how other people are, how their bodies are gonna function. So, a lot of times I’m just like, obviously watching a lot of guys. Through their movements and in, in my head as I’m watching, like you maybe squatting or doing something, I’m trying to imagine what you’re feeling like sort of this mirroring in a way. And sometimes I’ve seen guys who train, I can tell, like legit, I’m, I’m getting like contraction. I feel like the contraction that they’re having, for example, in their chest, like I’m, I’m getting sore from seeing them doing their work, (Phone rings) let me just close this.  Or maybe, doing something that I feel like, okay, that’s legit probably cause some pain and being able to take my own experience and then look at somebody and what they’re doing, be able to realize what they’re doing, Is it wrong? Is it okay? And there’s a limited application to this of course because you can never know what’s happening inside of somebody. Like just looking at them, it’s not gonna tell you a lot. It’s gonna tawll you, it’s gonna tell you something about their body and their reflection and affordability and whatnot, but very, very limited amount of information. But it’s still be useful for the general purpose of making sure that they’re not making any big mistakes with their movement that could make through increased risk in injury. Um, so that’s one thing how I’m using it. And I guess you can also say like, if you’re posting content online, like every now and then you wanna show your abs, you wanna, you wanna show people that, you know, you just don’t talk the talk, you know, walk the walk. Like if, if you’re talking about fat loss and you’re turn terribly out of shape, it’s not gonna convey like there’s gonna be some mismatch between what you’re talking about and what one in reality, like you’re showing that it’s possible. So, unfortunately for me, I’m not genetically blessed when it comes to like having an amazing, I’m just lean, but I’m not like very crazy ripped abs and what not crazy ripped…abs. I  have those. So, there’s not the person who shows off his body a lot, but I know for a lot of other guys who are on the social media, like you’ve seen the guys who are like always shirtless, uh, showing over their physique, uh, that’s an edge in terms of competitive market, that can definitely be an edge for other guys. I guess I’m shy shy when it comes to this, but it, it is something that I know works for a lot of people. So, yeah, I’ll end it here.

Gian: Okay. Yeah. So, what you, you mentioned kind of at the end like there are certain, um, demographics that people, or at least in, in the online sphere, like to see. Could you expand a little bit more on this? Like what, I mean abs obviously yes. But is there, are there anything, any other embodiments that you think help when it comes to, um, being successful as an online presence?

Niki: So, it’s gonna depend on who you’re talking to and who you’re trying to address. Say for example, if you have a 20-year-old female, she probably wants to have great glutes. If you talking to a 60-year-old guy, he probably doesn’t care about this. He just wants to move pain free, or if you’re talking about, uh, a dad bod, he probably wants to get rid of the belly. He doesn’t care about leg training or something like that. You talk to a yoga teacher, obviously it’s a completely different thing. So, yes, you wanna focus and d, talk to the exact, you wanna have a very, very specific message and talk to just a very specific person. So yeah, the approach. It’s gonna work different for different guys. Like, I cannot relate to somebody like, um, who’s talking to 20-year-olds.  Mostly following on social media or in general, the guys I’m working with, they’re a little bit older than me and these are people that I can relate to. If you’re 20, I’m probably gonna be like, yeah, I don’t get like, you want like crazy abs and being super lean because you wanna get girls. Like, this is also not the embodiment itself, but what that body, why you, what that body can you think that body can give you? So, if you’re 25, you think that if I have a lean body, I’m gonna be able to attract a mate. Simply said, obviously most people are thinking in different terms, but there’s a lot here. So, you wanna also, not so much focus on the body and embodiment, but rather the message, what does this body mean for you? Or what do you think is gonna get you? So, the having a specific body, it’s not necessarily the goal. Like again, if you’re 20 years old, like having abs and being super lean or maybe like 20, let’s say 25, having abs being super lean, it sucks. In a sense that it sucks to get there. So, it’s not ultimately the goal to be there because if you can be out of shape and still be able to party and you know having girls or not, why have abs if you can’t get the same results without abs? So, it’s not necessarily I wanna be lean because I wanna be lean. It’s about, I wanna be lean because I wanna get something because I’m lean. And if you’re talking about somebody who’s 60, I mean, be a different thing, common thing that I hear would, especially guys in around 35, is I wanna lose my gut because I wanna be a role model for my kids. So that’s a big thing. It’s not that. I don’t, or maybe like somebody has diabetes or has like some kind of a health disease, they, they see their blood panel, blood markers, it’s terrible. Their health is terrible, so they wanna lose weight, not because they wanna cut down on the junk food and that they wanna cut down on just being lazy and not doing anything, or, you know, more exaggerating or something like that. It’s because, if they lose the fat, they’re gonna feel better. They’re gonna get respects from, you know, their kids, their wife, they’re gonna have more energy. So, being in shape, getting in shape, getting a specific body, a lot of times, yes, it, it does involve a lot of work. And it’s not ultimately the goal, it just, the process.

Gian: Yeah, yeah. This is that. There’s a lot going on and, uh, you know, there’s so many, so many things that I do wanna talk about, but I think, you know, we talked a little bit about the important aspects for you in your body and what helps you. But do you notice aspects of other bodies, so like maybe for example, your client’s bodies, what aspects might help or hinder them, in, you know, the pursuit of fitness. for example, with specifically online coaching?

Niki: Yeah. So, with online coaching, there are some limitations. I think the biggest benefit of online coaching is that we can tackle the diet like if you’re working with a PT in person, it’s usually can get more focused on movement provided he knows his stuff, which can, unfortunately, I’m not gonna say that this is gonna be the case for most people, but we can tackle more diet. Now, online coaching, there’s a little bit more limitations in terms of, talking about training and so on. And a lot of it has to come down to visualization on my end and on the client’s end. Cause I asked, I have to use words, I have to use text, I have to use video. It’s not the same as being able there and to correct you on the spot. I would say that’s the biggest limitation, but it’s one small limitation compared to all the different benefits because, I open my phone, there’s messages from all the guys that can respond, and they can show me a picture of their meal. They can just have a specific problem. It’s summertime, people are going holidays. Like there’s a lot of benefits to just being able to communicate this. Now, again, strictly sticking to bodies. As a coach and a little of what I’m gonna say, it’s not stuff that I came up with myself. So full credit is gonna go to probably Tom Purvis. I haven’t worked with him directly. I have consumed a lot of his courses and I have worked with some of his coaches, and I think I keep working with some of the guys that he had personally trained and coached. So again, I don’t wanna say something that’s gonna sound like, oh, he knows a lot of stuff. It’s not my own knowledge. This is something that has, that I’ve learned from somebody else. So, the critical things are who we’re talking about. So, we have an individual. Now, what we’re gonna consider, what we have to consider is basically people send me pictures. What I’m gonna consider is their structure. They’re build, like some people are like very wide, build like a tank. Some people are more like, more like slim and slender. That’s one thing, like did their structure, skeletal mass, there’s a questionnaire about maybe any health issues that they have. Pathology. Do you have like tendonitis? Do you have like some issues with your knees? Do you have any surgeries? So, we’re just trying to collect information about the individual, like who we’re talking about, just basically visually, any feedback that they have. Any preferences that they have. Like some people tell me what I’ll try, I hate these types of movements for whatever reason and can definitely go dig deeper or it could be a preference in terms of the training style.So, for example, if you like power lifting training, which is bench press, squat, deadlift, and you don’t like dumbells and cables, okay, that’s also something that we need to fine tune. Or especially if you are somebody who doesn’t have the structure to handle a bar press really well. Right. You may prefer that exercise, but because of your structure, because of your pathology, because of whatever surgeries you have, that may be not a good match there, which means it would need to have a conversation.But initially I’m just collecting information, visual, whatever the people are telling me. Then the next phase is gonna be seeing people move. So, this is gonna tell me a lot about what you’re capable and getting your feedback. What I like to do with all the new guys that are joining the program is I take them through some basic movements, not because I think that those basic movements are amazing. So, squad or deadlift, I don’t think these are the greatest movements. I don’t think everybody should be doing them. And I think that for some people they’re terrible. But because there’s such compound exercise, they give me a lot of visual feedback of not only how you look in front of a snapshot, a picture. But how you move and how you distribute the load, your foldability and so on. And based on this, I can start drawing some conclusions, making some conclusions. Say for example, I can see your squat and I can see that maybe you don’t have a lot of mobility in your ankles, or maybe the way your squat is gonna make you very hip dominant, which is gonna hit your glutes a ton, maybe your lower back. It’s not gonna do much for your quads. And if your goal, this is another piece of the equation. If your goal is, you come to me and tell me, you know what Niki, I wanna build great quads and I see your squat. And it’s all hips, basically glutes and low back and no quads. Guess what? We’re not gonna be doing some squats, but I still need to see you move. So, we have the individual, we have the pathologies, we have the moves, we have his structure, we have his goals, like what is your goal. What’s gonna work for you, and what are your preferences? So, you may be again somebody who loves to do a squat, but at the same time, You wanna build great quads, but your squat’s not gonna build your quads.So, we’re gonna probably gonna keep the squad there because that’s something that you are enjoying. But based on your goal, we may have to add some other work, maybe like some lunges or split squats, or maybe like leg extension. We have to come up with something too. Have, have you, allow you to achieve your goal. So, it’s this sort of an assessment that happens over time and it requires also a lot of communication because sometimes I’m not seeing stuff, and even with my own self, a lot of times I rely on the creating that connection. With my own body, which takes a lot of time to develop. And when we’re trying to get feedback from somebody who has poor connection with his muscles and his joints, it takes even more time because you have to sort of like educate them. You should be feeling this type of sensation, or if you’re feeling this, then maybe, okay, something else is happening. So, it’s having those conversations where I look at, let’s say somebody’s squat. I draw my own conclusions and then I ask him a question, okay, to me it looks good, but how does it feel to you? What do you feel? Do you get any issues with your joints? Can you go any bit lower? What happens if you step a little bit wider? So, there’s still some experimentation there. And this is like the ongoing customization process, which I will also wanna talk a little bit about when it comes to embodiment and body movement and so on. Working with coaches, I’m gonna stay away from that, I am just wanna focus on the movement and exercise. You cannot customize, you cannot create a personalized program for somebody that you don’t know. Like this happens over time. Same thing with when I’m working with a coach. I can tell you from experience, uh, especially on the bad side, most people, most coaches that I’ve worked with, I’ve worked with some really, really smart people. They would mess up my first program. It’s bound to happen. I’m more of a genetic freak when it comes certain type of things, especially on the bad side. Again most of the things are gonna be correct, but some things they’re gonna mess up. And I, I know this is gonna be the case. Same thing when you’re working with somebody that you don’t know that well, customization, personalization happens over time through communication. So, it’s like this is the important part. Yeah. One person, one side, the other person together, we’re a team that that’s how it’s gonna work at the end. Maybe I went on  bit of the tangent.

Gian: No, when I’m hearing, I mean. It is interesting. You know, We’re coming close to end of the podcast, what I am hearing is a lot, there is a huge link between sort of somatic or kinetic intelligence, like knowing how you move, knowing your body, you know, being able to make this muscle mind connection and then communicating that. And I think that this is a really important part and kind of what I’m also trying to look at, in regard to like how we communicate about, about bodies. So, this is, that’s all, it’s all really, really cool information. So, I think, yeah, I just kind of wanted to maybe wrap up by asking you two things. One, is there anything that you would like to say as a sort of wrap up, tell all kind of this is what I have to get out in the world message;   nd if you have any questions for me, so something that you might, you thought would be interesting to, to bring up?

Niki: Gotcha. Okay. So as the message, I would say, no matter who you are, no matter what’s your situation, understand that there’s gonna be one thing, or there’s gonna be a few things that are gonna work extremely well for you. And there’s gonna be a lot of things that are not gonna work for you. And you’ve gotta have, that’s the challenging part. You have to find what works for you. There’s a lot of confusion out there, for me as well. Where, When it comes to getting in shape, moving pain free, Wherever you’re coming from. You have to find what works for you regardless of what works for everybody else. You may be that 1% exception. There are some universal things that are gonna work for everybody. If you wanna get in shape, you have to eat less. There’s most of them, I guess there’s also exceptions, but the universal tools are gonna be, you have to move, you have to do some challenging physical activities, and you have to be eating mostly healthy foods. And of course, if you’re trying to lose weight, you have to be eating less. These are kinda like the universal things that are gonna work for pretty much everybody. But the application for you is gonna be different. And don’t get discouraged if your friend is doing something and they’re getting results and you’re doing the same thing that, and it doesn’t work for you. That’s totally fine. Happens all the time and just focus on what produce results, like results are ultimately your sort of like that, that’s your compass. If you’re wondering like, am I doing the right thing, are you getting results? If the answer is yes, keep doing what you’re doing as long as you’re producing results. And of course, if it doesn’t lead to a burnout. If whatever you’re doing, stop producing results, just stop doing it. You’re wasting your time. And what may produce results for me is probably not gonna produce results for you. This sort of goes into some of the questions that I have. Like sometimes guys, clients are asking, hey, Niki, like,  what do you eat? You don’t want to eat like me, eh, I can guarantee it’s not gonna work for you. Same thing with movement. What are the types of that you do? Don’t wanna do the same stuff. If you’re looking at somebody’s workout online, sure you can give it a try, but if it doesn’t work for you, don’t do it. So that’s sort of like the message that I’m gonna leave you off with. In terms of a question for you, that’s an interesting one. I guess, how have things been going for you after the program? That’s more of a curious, more of a personal thing.

Gian: I mean, it’s been, you know, personally, um, I’ve. We could also talk about it after the podcast, but, you know, in general, you know, I worked with you for, I think something like six four months, months or eight months, four months maybe. Yeah. Ok. And, I was living in Switzerland, and it was, it was nice. Um, but then of course things came up with my PhD and dissertation and, and submitting and all of this, and I got kind of in, I went in a different direction. Um, but I think one of the foundations that I got from, I think you were the, you were actually the first coach that I had. So, it was nice to kind of see what a plan could look like and what, you know, um, how that could help influence my body. Yeah, it was a different, it was just a different time. I was also living directly above the gym that I was going to, so that was, it was just, it was just situation. But yeah, it’s been going, it’s been going well. I would say I’m still, you know, trying to go to the gym six days a week. Four, four days weight training

Niki: Yeah. That’s good, man.

Gian: two days light cardio yeah. So, But, yeah,  that’s it.

Niki: It’s a learning process, man. And this for some of the guys watching. I would say if you’re thinking about coaching, training, working with the coach, give it a try. Maybe you’re gonna connect amazingly well with one person, maybe not like, similar to life. It’s not gonna work out the first time you do. Maybe it will, like, who knows? It’s of learning experience and find somebody you really enjoy working with. Um, me, myself have had like so many different coaches and a lot of times it was that natural transition where you had great results, you really connect with certain certain person. But you’ve sort of exhausted what you can learn from that person. Just moving on to somebody else doesn’t mean that he’s a bad person or he is a bad coach.  Like sometimes you have to move, sometimes it’s a get to try stuff on your own. So, uh, hopefully get value from the program, and yeah man, keep on, keep up the gains.

Gian: Yeah, definitely. Alright, so I’m just gonna end, we’re gonna end here and, uh, I’ll say, uh, thanks everybody for listening and yeah, thanks Niki for, for sharing your thoughts.

Niki: Peace you guys.

With Dr. Caleb Stephens @csidentifight on instagram and creator of Eat. Protest. Lift.

 

Gian: All right. Okay. Hey everybody. Welcome to the Critical Beings Podcast. I’m Gian Hernandez, a postdoctoral researcher in the Amsterdam School of Communication Research. Today’s guest is a scholar, activist, multiple state and national US record holder, intersectional clinician, and the CEO and founder of Identifight LLC. Uh, let’s welcome my very good friend, Dr. Caleb Stephens. Hey, Caleb!

Caleb: Hey, thanks for having me.

Gian: No problem.  I’m really excited to dive into what we’re gonna talk about today.So, before we begin, is there anything else you want to add to this introduction? I know there’s so many more things, you have so many more accomplishments than just this, but I
wanted to be a little more concise, but let’s, you know, give you the space to
talk about yourself.

Caleb: Uh, no. I mean, I think one of the things people don’t know is that
you are part of my scholarship,

Gian: This is true. We can definitely link that in the description to
this video. So, when we, when, uh, it’s just for the, for those of you who, who
don’t know Caleb or me, Caleb did his, we did our PhDs at the same time, and for
his PhD, Eat, Lift, Protest.

Caleb: Eat, Protest, Lift.

Gian: Sorry, Protest, Lift, that was the other way around.Uh, it
was featured interviews with people, and I was one of those people. So, we’re
kind of on this interview mutual thing, so definitely, definitely. Yeah, we
should definitely, get that out there. Cool. So, I just wanted to dive right
in. So, can you tell me, um, about your work, I mean, broadly defined. what do
you, like to focus on? How do you move through the world? Let’s, uh, let’s just
open the floor up and we can kind of go from there.

Caleb: Yeah. Let’s start with the easy ones. Cool.  So, I, um, I research and study actively as
well as like research, reading and watching and stuff like that. Ways that Black
bodies create space, navigate space and subvert spaces that are not meant for
us, um, or our bodies in seeing effects trauma and healing wise that it has on
our beings. Uh, so that’s been really interesting, I study in main three

different areas. broadly, power lifting and Olympic weightlifting, community

and eating. and also like, protest and activism.

Gian: Nice, So, there’s so many things to go into right now, but I really
like this, this tripartite thing you talk about. So, let’s go into the first
thing. So, you talked this, this notion of Black bodies. Can you expand on that
and what you understand as embodiment?

Caleb: Embodiment. To me, Black bodies are anything like anybody that
falls within the Black diaspora. Um, the ways that we have been dispersed, or
from our origins across the, the world. And so Blackness in the way that I
understand it, um, in the United States as well as transnational Blackness,
which is different. And it’s still kind of being figured out. That’s my
understanding. Because nationality is not something that people in the United
States care about really. Um, we really focus on race, not the ethnicity part
or nationality because America, and so, yeah, but yeah, as far as the
embodiment of Blackness is, it means to be forever othered. And so, finding
out. How to capitalize the O in other and finding out the different variations
of other, and claiming that and turning it into Blackness and Black power and,
understanding the umbrella of who’s included, who’s not, and why people aren’t
included and what that does to the conversation, the research and the legacies,
both, living legacies and past legacies.

Gian: Yeah. Yeah, that’s, there’s a lot, you know, embroiled in all that.
But can you, can you maybe also, also be a nice segue way into the second piece
that you talked about, sort of eating and community. Is there a way that this
sort of thing can, you know, Talk, speak to some of those pieces. You mentioned
this whole notion of a big O other or what, who constitutes what’s included, et
cetera, et cetera. Can you speak to maybe the sort of community building aspect
of maybe part that part of your work?

Caleb: Yeah, I think. That, um, keeping, um, power structures such as White
supremacy as much out of the spaces, um, and creating spaces that is not based
around understandings of. Anti-Blackness and things like that. Like just
creating spaces that people can fill up and figure out who they’re, um, and
then in our variations we can have conversations, um, about how we got there,
about how, um, how we’re still on our journey, what it feels like, what we
need, um, and then move into. Living and thriving and talking about what we
want. I think that survival dictates that we gravitate towards people and so
naturally we gravitate towards people that look like us, that act like us, that
live like us and things like that. But I think the richness in the capital oh,
other is that we’re able to show up and be ever present with people that are
very different in their Blackness to our own Blackness.

Gian: So maybe also it’s, it’s interesting to hear kind of this maybe
more formal approach to it, but I also, you know, wanted to maybe touch on one
of the things that you really graciously invited me to this one time, which was
Black brunch. Right? So, we’ve been, uh, “virtual” friends for years. We met
each other in Amsterdam, uh, which is funny because I wasn’t even living here
at the time. But that was a, that was a great, we could talk about that as
well. Um, but then I also, you know, with this notion of eating together and
forming community, I’m reminded of breaking bread and like having these
communal experiences with one another. Is that something that you prioritize
practice? What does that look like for you?

Caleb: Well, your boy loves eat. So, you know, uh, I, for me, food has
always brought people together, and this is a very secular, non-religious way.
I grew up in the church and stuff like that. And,  so breaking bread is very biblical and things
like that. But I, uh, I cast those things away,, because the, the net that we
wanna grow is much bigger and much greater and far less abrasive than any
religiosity, if that’s a word. Um, uh, activism…So,
for me, um, creating Black brunch a way for meeting together Black people in
Lawrence, where I live, Lawrence,  Kansas
United States. And just exist and just laugh and for libations and, you know,
tell stories and network and build friendships and communities because Black
people hide. We don’t go downtown where, which is where Black brunch is. Um, we
stay traditionally segregated.Whether it’s in churches or just literally within
the city. Uh, we don’t. We don’t show up. And so, I wanted us to show up and
have a presence, um, because we deserve that. It sucks because we can go all
week without seeing Black people. At least I could. Um, and so I needed a space
where I could just go and eat. Cause again, your boy likes to eat, and
everybody likes to eat. And so, you know, whether it was raising funds or
funding for people to attend and have their meals paid for, or, you know,
spotting people or doing things like that, I did everything I could, um, within
my means to make sure that people that needed community, were able to be a part
of it.

Gian: Yeah, that resonate. I, so that resonates with me a lot. I also
love to eat, and actually one of my, my favorite, my sort of love languages or
favorite ways of relaying to people is eating around them. So, it was really

Caleb: Ok, yeah.

Gian: Really, really nice to also just the when the one time I was able
to attend Black brunch, actually flying to Lawrence, Kansas, um, it was, yeah,
it was beautiful. It was breathtaking. It was really nice. But I like this
notion also of showing up. And being present. And that really transitions also
into the third piece that you mentioned, which is activism. Uh, can you talk
maybe about how your embodiment influences that activism and what Blackness
looks like in that space?

Caleb: I think, uh, in a lot of ways I learned my Blackness as an adopted
child through radical Blackness. So, all the spaces where I showed up the Blackest.
If you will, um, were radical spaces where I was creating and doing my best to
protect people with the privileges I had, and also putting things on the line,
as a Black body. And so, you know, I, looking back, it’s easy to make this
summary, but in the moment I was doing, what was necessary. Um, it felt like I
don’t, most of the time I believe that the things I did were informed by the
ancestors,That’s what I understand that connection to be now. Before it was
like, I just think it was my intuition or things like that. But I think
that,  looking back, I was really
fighting for a space so that me, when I was six years old or things like that,
so that I could create space for that version of me that I see in other people.
Much less selfish than it sounds explaining it. But you know, I think.

Gian: I think, you know, part of what we do as adults is to, you know,
salvage our inner child to kinda, you know, nurture, what was maybe traumatized
out of us in a lot of ways. So, I think that really speaks to, you know, How
we.

Caleb: 75% of therapy, haha

Gian: just, I mean, there we go. But, uh, you know, and also in your work
as a, you know, you say inter intersectional clinician, this is. You know,
you’re bread and butter, what you do with a lot of your time.So, I can imagine
that there’s a lot of points of, of, you know, juncture there.

Caleb: and contention. I think that at the end of the day, the reality is,
people were hurting, and it was time to show up. Whether it was at Standing
Rock with, in solidarity with the indigenous people, or, um, in my hometown in
Lawrence showing up for queer and trans people for. I mean, just for, for
anybody. But the fact of the matter is that Blackness is always the last part,
but it’s the first part that Black people introduce, and it’s definitely the
first part that racist introduce. So you say that Black person, and for us,
like, I’m a Black social worker, or I’m, you know, a Black activist or things
like that.And so, instead of it being something that is extremely subjugated, just
in the way that it’s referenced. My activism and the way that I try to pour
power into the world, into people’s lives and empowerment and things like that,
comes from helping people to recognize that Black power, like Blackness is
power and the, and the Other has a name, and it’s important that people use
that name.Put some respect on my name.

Gian: For sure. Uh, can you also, I mean, I, because we know each other
outside of this, but I also really wanna put a fine point on it. You, like, in
real sort of concrete example, like, you have a very pivotal role in Black
Lives Matter, right? Like, that’s kind of what your, what your activism looks
like. Can you speak a little bit about that?

Caleb: Yeah. I mean, helped found a, the Black Lives Matter-LFK. Chapter,
which is the only chapter in the nation that’s in solidarity and my
understanding, solidarity, um, with indigenous people cause I believe that we
always believe that, because Haskell Indian Nations University is the biggest
Indian nation university in the United States, was there just is silly to also
not believe that there aren’t Afro-indigenous people.You know, just like there
are Afro-Latino folks and, you know, all kinds of people, we will tell. So, we
founded that and, uh, we’re unaffiliated with the, the big, like the big
overarching Black Lives Matter movement because we have our own individual
goals and things like that. But the reality is like, when it all went down, we
showed up. And you know, much less, much less now. We’re doing a lot of
community work and we’ve always do stuff like that, underground and doing
things, but, but yeah, it’s weird to talk about because like we were just
fighting for our lives and, there was this movement happening as well, and so
the movement helped to ground us, and we, like kind of made it our own, as it
relates to like local, um, yeah.

Gian: Yeah. No, I mean, I, I think that’s, you know, it’s really
important to kind of highlight the intermingling of the local, the national,
the regional, the global. All of that. And I think, you know, our, our
friendship is also kind of a testament to that, right? Where we, you know, we,
we met sort of in a very specific regional space, but then it kind of, you
know, bridged borders. And now, you know, being friends with you and having the
contact with the other folks at Black brunch, it’s like really nice to say
like, oh, there’s somebody in Texas, or, oh, there’s somebody in, in Georgia. Oh,
there’s some, you know, most folks are Lawrence. And, um, you know, I’m out
here. I’ve tried to bring friends as well from, from other places. So, it’s
just, yeah. It’s nice to see also, you know, local manifestations of it that
have broader sort of reaching connections. You know.

Caleb: I think that the thing that’s most important in my work, if there
was, if you were like, Hey Caleb, like what do you think is most important
thing you got? It would definitely Black, because what the goal of Black Wrench
is to remind people, remind the Black people that attend that, it wouldn’t be
the same without them. Period. In so many different ways. Not that you have to
be a part of it, but that we miss you when you’re not there and love you when
you are there. And love you when you’re gone. So, you know. Community is the
most important thing in the human experience. That’s the thing that, that my
research has taught me. Um, community can either ruin your life forever or it
can enrich your life in a way that helps you to navigate through the horrors
and ongoing terrors of anti-Blackness, of misogynoir of, you know, like,
transphobia, homophobia, like all of the things that make…All the things that
make things awful. These, these things are insufferable. We are unable to do
these things on our own. And you can see it because the people that try to do
it on their own die very, very early. And some of the people that do it in
community also die early. But I would rather die in my community than die
alone. And I think that that’s the, that’s the roots of all of the work that I
do, is that people deserve to be, be healed and seen and heard and believed.
Hmm.

Gian: Shout out community. Shout out to Black brunch. Uh, we, you know,
they’re, I mean, they’re, they’re gonna be listened to this. Like, that’s just
what it’s so, nice. Yeah. cool. All right, well, so I’m, I, there’s so many
things that I do wanna talk about, but I also, you know, wanna bring in the,
this podcast and kind of the topic of it.  So, I just wanna hit you with maybe like a
couple of questions. But first, firstly, like, when I say the word critical,
what does that mean to you?

Caleb: Sixth grade math class and me doing terrible jobs in math, you
know, and my teacher being very critical, uh, critical. I don’t really know
what critical means. It can mean so many different things. I think that in this
context, critical would mean to me synonymous. Synonymous with like pivotal
and, um, essential, and, um, highlighted, things like that.

Gian: Yeah, I really like, cuz I, I ask everybody this question and I
really like that there are so many different answers because it’s also this
kind of idea that like, it can be critical in the sense of practicing critique
and it can be critical or being or practicing criticism. A lot of people, you
know, they’ll, they’ll say, oh, criticism and critique and all that. But then
there’s also I, and I like that you picked up on this, like we as critical
beings can. Critical in the sense of critique, but also, we are important.
Right?  And so I think that that, that,
that’s one of the messages that I wanna get out there with this, with this podcast.

Caleb: I passed.

Gian: I mean, you know, it’s, it, yeah. It’s, you’re here, you passed.

Caleb: Oh, Dr. Hernandez, you trying to trick me.

Gian: Well, Dr. Stephens. No, I don’t. So, if I, you know, if I talk
about, you know, being critical, what does that look like? Maybe in your work,
if you have, um, you, this, this definition that you beautifully outlined,
right? Being pivotal, being highlighted. What, um, what does critical look like
in the world of Dr. Caleb Stephens?

Caleb: Hmm. Critical to me means…It’d be a tremendous departure without
your, I think that I have so many critical individuals in my lives that help to,
help me to navigate the way I need words to be understood and the way I need
impacts to my life, so like, for instance, I am a cishet man, like Black man. So,
I need queer and trans folks. Like I, I need, I need knowledge that’s outside
of my scope of understanding and my lived experience. For me to be a scholar
that’s worth a shit, like a human that’s worth a shit. Like I need people
outside of my understanding for me to. Play more than the role of just being
there to create space, which is fine. I mean, that’s a role that I do and I,
and I enjoy. But if I’m going to be more than that to people, if they need, I
need to have the armor as my mentor, Dr. Nicole Hodges Persely , who teaches at
University of Kansas, actually is a, yeah, she’s in administration now. But you
know, she always talked about getting the right armor and we watch a lot of
people who were once critical to our lives. Put on armor that is antiquated,
that is lifeless, that is solemn, and that is very aggressive and very loud and
very wrong. Um, and so that’s the antithesis of what critical means to me,
although there are critical problems. So, there’s that. But yeah, that’s what
critical means to me. Your presence. If you weren’t there, my life would be so
much different, and the path would’ve been so divergent from what it is.

Gian: Yeah, I feel that. And speaking of diverging, uh, maybe if, if we
look at like other notions of critical, so like critique or criticism, or. You
know, directing that in a different direction. Do you find that that also makes
a space or sort of shows up in your life? Is there maybe sort of the notion of
practicing critique, um, in your.

Caleb: Yeah, Mm-hmm. Always. You know, it’s interesting because I also
will live with ADD and so one of the facets of ADD as we are learning about is,
rejection sensitive…Rejection sensitivity dysphoria, which means that any
notion of perceived abandonment or critique or things like that elicits a
visceral, very strong reaction, emotional reaction.  And also, you wouldn’t be a very good scholar,
person, you know, uh, activist or things like that if you didn’t critique. And
received criticism and things like that. And so, um, it’s interesting as I’ve
done this now for like 10, 11 years, like activism work and things like that in
different, and increasingly turbulent right, junctures. But it’s interesting to
put those two things together because I mean, unless you’re critiquing things
like you’re missing people and, and moreover, Critiquing power structures is
always important because otherwise you’ll be gaslit into thinking that you
failed and didn’t do enough, and then bam, you’re gone, youre checked out,
right? Uh, whether that means literally or physically. Um, and so, critique is
very important. It’s also one of the hardest things to do, I think, at least
for me, um, because the work that I do is it’s like very intentional, uh, you
know, A lot of the mistakes that I’ve made in the past make me wanna vomit. They’re
like very small mistakes, you know, and things I just like, think ruminate on
them all the time. But, the fact of the matter is that I’ve done a lot of
things that I’ve missed out on a lot of people. Um, and it’s unacceptable, like
intention versus impact, right? and so sitting with that and what that means
and things like that, outside of being a human person, the understanding that
scholars need to be able to be critiqued and like when I was in my doctoral
program doing community activism, things like that, but like it was always very
important that.I would destroy things that pissed me off, like just destroy
them, critique them all away. But my mentor was always like, “hey, you need to
make sure and learn what they’re trying to tell you is correct, so you can know
what is incorrect. And then figure out how to like, how to , be like, hey, this
is what’s missing. This is who’s missing. This is the impact whether you fix it
or not. It’s important if you’re gonna be upset about it, be able to tell them
exactly what is popping.”

Gian: Yeah. I, uh, a lot of that really resonates for me because it’s, as
we navigate these power structures that we’re never really made for us. Um, I
find myself wanting to, you know, reject and critique and, and burn things to the
ground. But at the same time, you know, your, your mentor’s words ring true.
Uh, we have to learn them, we have to become familiar with them in order to
navigate them. So I find myself wading through a lot of bullshit in order to
get important parts. Something that, that you recognize or that that, is that
how your experience went as well?

Caleb: Yeah. You remember that Kermit meme where he is, he’s like typing
really, really hard. That was like me for the first. Two years, legitimately.
Two years. Well, really until my comprehensive exams and through it all, I
guess. But that was just me. I was just like, I was so angry, the audacity that
people would assign things to me that was either busy work or so antiquated
that didn’t make sense. Or obviously like, uh, transphobic or anti-Black.
Everything is so inundated in theater. With anti-Blackness, the, the birthplace
of minstrel shows, that it just pissed me off so much. And it wasn’t until I
got tired enough that I realized that I had, I didn’t have to do it for every
single thing. That it was important for me, for my livelihood and for the
community that I was serving and living in, living amongst, um, that I didn’t
burn myself out trying to. Trying to preach to people that haven’t cared for
the last 50 years, and they’re definitely not gonna care for the next 50 years.
but like when you’re talking about, you know, wading through all the bullshit,
at the end of the day, one, one thing that I was not prepared for is that the
little victories would be a sentence or, uh, a word or an acknowledgement, and
I was not prepared for the underwhelming nature of success within academia.It’s
like, oh, like even when you get tenure, it’s like, Hey, congratulations. Thank
you for all the work that we made you do. Uh, you’ve been tenured. It’s like,
wow. Yes and the work continues; you know? I mean, it’s just like.

Gian: You’re not you that you’re not so. I’m laughing because I’m reminded
of this quote that I tell everybody about this track that, you know, we happen
to experience. It’s just this idea of academia is a pie eating contest where
the prize is more pie.

Caleb: Yeah.

Gian: You know, you do, if you do it well enough, you get to continue to
do it and then it’s exactly that. Right? You get tenure and then it’s like, oh,
okay, thanks. And now move, you know, continue. Right. Keep going. Yeah,

Caleb: And it’s the pie you don’t even like anymore. And I am too deep in
it, I am too deep in the competition, it’s two minutes left, I am gotta keep
this pie anymore. I can’t taste anything, but I’m here so I may as well. I
mean, and that sucks, right? Like, but that’s also in all of the spaces in
powerlifting and, uh, in community building and activism and scholarship and
being alive and not dead, and not giving up on, not humanity, but not giving up
on the fact that like, this shit is so hard it makes me wanna kill myself every
day. Um, shit like that, you know what I mean? Like, everything is overwhelming
and we’re doing it because we believe in the work that we’re doing, but also
because we believe that it’s gonna leave a legacy that might spark something or
something. Because if we didn’t, we might keep doing it, period.And also, uh,
we would be very sad.

Gian: Yeah. I think about leaving a legacy a lot. Not in a biological
sense. I don’t plan on having kids. But I think about being like the person I
needed to see when I was younger. And something that like, similar to what you
said, right? Like the hospicing, this idea that, you know, um, this is all
there is, right? I think you have to also think about the long span of

Gian: But I also wanted to get your take on, you talked a lot about
different fields and how you say power lifting, academia, all of these things,
mental, the mental health space, you know, clinician, all, all that sort, sort
of praxis. And so I’m wondering, um, if in your, in these various fields, do
you find opportunity to practice critique? And what does that critique look
like?

Caleb: Yeah, I find opportunity to practice critique all the time. Just
constantly disappointed in people. Most of the time the people that have the
biggest platforms are the biggest piece of shit, um, in all the different, um,
venues or the people, like they say, never meet your, your heroes or whatever.And
so, I find that to be true and it’s not necessarily true on, it’s not true with
my mentor. I mean, she’s always been wonderful. But, like, in these different
areas like community leaders, um, I mean in and in a lot for some people.  I would be the disappointment. I get it.
That’s, I mean, that’s real. I haven’t been perfect for sure. but also in like
power lifting all these people that are supposed to be super cool, especially
the Black people that we like finally like the best in the world and like very
much. Cop loving, like, yeah, just cop loving. Very militant, but like not in
the revolution kind of way.Very like, don’t touch my guns kinda way. You know,
not that those things are necessarily bad, but it’s like, hey, you have an
opportunity to reach and love so many more people that love you and desperately
need. But I mean, this is the thing, right? Like Black people have to be
exceptional all the time. And so, but I, and I also find because duality
exists, I find much more disappointment in Black people that could be doing
with just a little bit more, they could be doing so much like, and making such
an impact, like the best and strongest people in the world could be saying,
Hey, Like Black Lives matter, like, uh, trans, trans people exist and they are
important and they’re essential and they’ve always been here, like queer
people, you know? But people oftentimes are just like, oh, being gay is cool.
It’s like, what about gay, Black People are like, nah. Or they’re like, no, I
don’t, I’m not political. It’s like, what? Like, you, but you’re Black? Nah,
no, no. It’s like. hey, you don’t, you don’t wanna go far enough to lose
something. And that’s the thing is like, I’m where I am in my career. Because I
have, because I have lost a lot of opportunities that I watch other people who
have been doing the work with me just in, in quiet and silence, have
opportunities that I, I would love to have, but I’ve been blacklisted because
people know who I am. They don’t wanna bring somebody in that’s going to
actively critique and stuff like that because they are chickenshits and it’s
like, okay, so you don’t want me to cause a stir by pointing out things that
would make your place better Gotcha. That would make people say, ok, gotcha.
That would like, yeah. So, you don’t want it. That’s the thing is that the
status quo goes so hard that even in especially these liberal people, right.
That are very much what I, what I call like, they’re in, they, they care about
like trending topics and not like actual, they don’t have an actual practice. It’s
like, oh yeah, well there’s poor people. And then the next week it’s like, oh,
these people. It’s like, yeah, there’s no foundation, there’s no roots. It’s
just the ebb and flow of emotions. And that’s fine when you’re a child. But
when you’re gone up and you like have resources and networking and power and
shit like that and status that you can utilize to help pull people out of muck,
uh, a lot of muck that you created, then that’s on you. And, people are not
really interested in participating in that kind of critique and that’s fine.
Um, you know, I think that I find myself particularly frustrated in power
lifting because. I think some of my best relationships have come from power
lifting, experiences, finding Black people. I found one time my Black coach
dipped out on me in nationals, my first nationals, uh, he didn’t come, he
didn’t show up, he didn’t call, he didn’t text, he didn’t do anything like
that.So, I found another Black dude that was competing, actually coaching that
day, and he was my coach for the day. So, it’s like, and now we’re still
friends. I mean, shout out to Corey McManus. Um, you know, I think at the end
of the day, like, and he turned out to be, he’s like a, some kind of lawyer. Might
be a civil rights lawyer, I don’t know. But just like, you know, finding
connections in spaces in South Carolina, which is, very much in the south. Uh, in
a space that I was very scared of being alone. Didn’t really know I was doing
this, my first national shit like that. Um, but having somebody show up and be
like, yo, I got you. And all it took was me being like, hey, my coach, can you
coach me for today? Was like, I’m a grown man. I was like 26. I was like 28. I
mean, I was grown, like grown, uh, and I was like, a puppy in the window, you
take me home. And he said, yeah, no hesitation. Those, those are the moments
that I experienced. When I see other Black people in powerlifting for the most
part. And that’s the camaraderie that I have also enjoyed in activism spaces,
um, and in definitely in Black brunch spaces that I created. Cause these are
things that we need and deserve and it’s not actually. As hard as White people
like to make us think, it’s to build community, not they’re really good at
destroying our communities. Shout out Tulsa, uh, shout out, you know, uh, Black
Wall Street, um, and things like that. You know, shout out Jim Crow. Shout out
new Jim Crow. Shout out, uh, you know, prison industrial complex. Shout out,
you know, schools, you know, shout out broken windows. You know, shout out all
these things. But at the end of the day, like. You have to work harder than
that to keep us from, from congregating. Uh, I think that the most acceptable
thing used to be churches, but we’re past that. We’re at a space where people
are like, hey, I’m tired of only bit and pieces of me being included, and so I
created space that.

Gian: You said, you said so many things that I, I really want to address.
Um, but I think, I think the first, the, at least the first one, let me, so I
could just start from the beginning. The first one that I mentioned or that I,
that caught me was this expecting camaraderie or realizing that there there
isn’t camaraderie or where you thought it might be.

Caleb: Yeah.

Gian: and this is something that I’ve seen in so many different
marginalized spaces, right? Like we, I mean in terms of intersections, right? Like
I, you know, you mentioned Afro-Latinos, like that’s me as well. And like queer
people, all of this. And I go to these spaces, and I think like, oh, there, we
should be coming together and we should be uplifting each other.And that’s just
absent, and it hurts a little bit more, right? Like,

Caleb:  yeah.

Gian: It’s fucked up, right? Like, it,

Caleb:  why? It’s, it’s like, that’s
the question. It’s like, why?

Gian: Yeah.

Caleb:  And I, there’s no amount of
expression. Like I can’t express to you how, how, how mad that makes me. Yeah.
Because it hurts people intentionally.Why are you doing this? Why are you
giving White people this satisfaction of doing exactly what they talk shit on
every day. Like why? Why are, it’s like, you know when your parents would take
you out to like when your parents are, or a babysitter or whoever the fuck was
in charge of you would take you out in public and you do some shit and they’d
be like, not in front of these strangers. Right. But now it’s like not in front
of these White people. Like why you are doing that.

Gian: The call is coming from inside the house?

Caleb: yeah!

Gian: Oh yeah.

Caleb: It’s embarrassing. And I find that to. Um, it’s, it’s very much
more, cuz I grew up adopted, so I grew up outside of a lot of Black experiences
and so for me, I’m hypersensitive to it cuz not only did, I watched White
people do it, and then I go out and I see Black people do it and I’m like. Y’all.They’re
embarrassing me, and I know it’s, it’s more
embarrassing to me because I heard all the White people talk about it all my life.
So, I know there are like aw these people. So, I was like who you talk about
and now I know. So, you know, Yeah, it, it is. It’s very frustrating and it is
very disappointing. And I also know it’s very unfair because White people can
be independent, and they do something and they’re always in lone wolf. We do
one thing and it’s like the whole all Black people, right? Of all different
intersections. Yeah, all of them. Yeah.

Gian: Yeah. A monolith

Caleb:  Yeah.

Gian: A monolith. Yeah. But I think, I mean, it really speaks, I really
want to join also these threads of like, embodiment. So, our, our Black bodies
and then also the emotions that get tied in cuz embodiment and emotions are,
are so much, so deeply interwoven.  And
I, you know, I think it comes into, comes into play when we talk, start talking
about like the different sort of communities that we, that we create for
ourselves and those emotional sort of affective connections, right? Like as you
know, as we talk, we’re even sort of, even now getting emotion more emotional.
Right. I noticed that as well. And that has everything to do with, with
embodiment.

Caleb: Yeah, I think, that building community means having different
people that act different ways and also being close enough to each other to
understand the common threads and what people are. Expressing, even if it feels
different and even if it’s, um, elicits different emotions and even, and
especially if it’s traumatizing, um, you know, like I want everybody to be able
to live. There are some people that I’m not able to live around, just because
we don’t vibe, but that doesn’t mean that their Blackness is any less valuable.

Gian: Yeah, that’s real. So, I mean, okay. So, there was also this piece
that I wanted to, to bring out as well. When you started talking about like how
this disappointment or it, it’s, it’s like a multifaceted thing, right? So,
there’s, it’s unfair to expect Black people to do all of this labor, this
emotional labor, right? And at the same time, you, we, we do want to kind of.
Have our, have our cake and eat it too. So, I’m wondering, I mean, not in that
sense, but I’m wondering like, you know, we, there’s that, you know, , old
state saying like, you gotta work twice as hard to earn half as much. But then
there’s all, and you know, everybody has to be exceptional. So, I’m wondering,
you know, how do you, how do you navigate that? Like what do you, has that ever
been levied towards you, first of all? And second of all, I mean, I know it
has, but can you talk about what it has and, um, uh, you know, what does that
look like in your, in your practice?

Caleb: Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, first and foremost,  I think it’s important to, to be honest with
the fact that like, you know, like Black, queer, trans, non-binary, non-men,
Are the ones that are expected to perform emotional labor.I am sometimes
referred to as a unicorn because I’m not a fool. I mean, I’m foolish sometimes,
but I’m not a fool. Like I do emotional labor as my profession. I hold space
for my profession. I hold, um, and create educational things for my profession.
Um, And I did these things before it was my profession. But in general, Black,
especially Black cishet men do not do that,
at all. and it is very violent in the way that we not only disregard,
but we disrespect to people that are doing all of these things. So, there’s
that. have I, yeah. I mean, have I, am I, do I have to be exceptional?
Absolutely. Did I have to be exceptional in, in my doctoral program? Absolutely.
extraordinary even. and it’s incredibly, it’s incredibly lonely. Um, it’s also,
it’s also unfair. It’s unfair to the people that. Just wanna be alive. Like I,
you know, we, every day you can look on Twitter, I don’t know how to use
Twitter, but I’m gonna act like I do in this case. You know, you can go on
Twitter every day and just watch Black people write things worth of like
leading and wanting and to understand why things are hard and stuff like that.And
we as. No, we’re like, nah, you know, I never really understood why people
that, like elders that call baby. Right. You know, like when I do something
like, nah baby, you can’t do that, but like you would look on Twitter or you know,
on social media in general and we’re like, Aw baby, it’s cause you’re Black. Like,
uh, you know, it’s like, you’re trans; it’s because you’re a Black trans
person. Like it’s because you’re a Black trans, like immigrants, like, you
know, it’s all of these things. It’s because people fucking hate you.

Gian:  Mm. Shout out to being the
only one in the room. Yeah, that’s, I mean, that resonates.

Caleb: So, like, and it sucks because, I mean, this is the same. I don’t
know. I think a lot of liberals are like, I’m not having kids because the
world’s terrible. It’s like, nigga this shit been terrible forever, we talk
about, it’s never been great for us.  But
I think the end of day, like, building community can look like so many
different kinds of things. And I appreciate all of those things. Every time we
step into our power and speak our truth and then move with and in our
communities, that is subverting every bit of death that was ever conveyed and
supposed to take us out. But that shit didn’t, and I think that that’s really
important. That’s the work… anymore. I don’t care about educating White people.
I don’t care at all. Um, I care about my people. I’m too tired to care about White
people. I’m too tired to educate White people. There are too many websites, and
you know, infomercials and YouTube videos that they can watch if they really
want, but they don’t. That’s fine. Stop bothering me and stop trying show up.
You can like, It do like morality checks and make sure that, I don’t think
you’re a terrible person. I do not care. You know, and I find myself caring
sometimes and it hurts me to go back to not caring because I’m like, man, I
remember what it used to be like to live in a place where I thought that
everybody was really rooting for ypu. Everybody was really wanting to protect
you. Cause they said, I wanna keep you safe. And so that actually meant
something back in the day, but only actions means stuff now and only money, uh,
creates those spaces. So, uh, until we are post capitalism, uh, I need your
money and I don’t need you to take up my energy. So, I think that creating,
upholding, empowering, validating, affirming. And showing up, in whatever way
you’re able to, and also not showing up, creates ripples that turn into waves
that turn into big splashes. Man, we deserve those. I think that so much of the
activism work that people whoo this is gonna be wild that people have done in
the past is still geared towards Whiteness. And that includes some of the
activism acts that I’ve done in the past. but We have to learn and be better.
Because a lot of the times the victory when it comes to Blackness is being able
to go back to our communities and thank them and more of them and of us.
Continue to show up and create living legacies so that when we shut our eyes
for the last time, however that comes about, that we can be like, shit. Like,
yeah, hell yeah. That was worth it.

Gian: Hm. Yeah.

Caleb: a lot of fun stuff. Yeah.

Gian: Yeah, Super fun, but I mean, important, necessary. I feel like part
of one of the reasons why I have this podcast is because I need, I wanna put
the, I want folks to be able to put these messages out there, right? Yep, and
it’s kind of related to that. I’m, you already started talking about it.Your
kind of, you know, already caught my vibe on this, but I’m, I’m wondering, you
know, for this, the many fields in which you are moving, right? And all of your
sort of diverse expertises.Do you see a potential direction or, you know, can
you provide some sort of like, idea around where do you think these fields are
going?What do you think these fields need? And it could be anything, right? It
could be power lifting, it could be activism, it could be, uh, you know, being
a mental health professional, all of that. Like, do you have any, I think, because
I think they’re also all related too, right? Like where do you think things
going?

Caleb: Yeah, why was my first reaction to say I don’t care. Um, I, I’m not
interested in the way that the fields are going. I’m interested in the ways
that people are needing. No, that sounds really cool. Um, but I think at the
end of the day, like I’ve never really given a fuck about trends and shit like
that. Like I could have, I could have done so many other things and make so
much money and just like lived a way less uncomfortable life. Um, but I
would’ve hated myself. Um, and I think that, you know, self-loathing is, was a
part of my past. Um, and when it becomes a part of my present means that I need
to pivot. And so for me, like, you know, empowerment and building community,
um, like integral and intimate community full of vulnerability and
intentionality and authenticity is all of those fields. Um, it’s the only way I
would step into academia. It’s the only way that I move in activism. Um, it’s
the only way that I, um, move, like in Black brunch, um, in community building.
Like it’s really the only way that I move in my private practice. The only way
I would ever write a book, any of these things, because I, I don’t care. I, I
don’t care about what other people are doing. Like people have been doing
terrible things forever. Like social work is behind 50 to 100 years. Um, power
lifting is a lot of very antiquated things. I mean, they banned trans people in
so many federations from competing in their gender, division. So, you know,
people are doing really cool things, and I hate them for that, and it’s very
strong feelings of hatred, disappointment, disdain, and rage. And I am not
somebody that, you know, growing up and things like that. Also, in activism in
general, we’re gaslit all the time, I don’t know why you’re so mad and I don’t
know, you feeling these things, shit like that. I’m feeling this way because
all of those feelings come from dead people. You go…And the reason why I wasn’t
mad before is cuz I didn’t know any of them and it just wasn’t important
enough. But now it is. Um, and so what I’ve been doing for the last 10 years
and what I’ll do for the rest of my life. Um, so anything that I do and
everything that I do, I hope that the creation has continuity. So, And I hope
that it’s Black as hell.

Gian: nice. Yeah. Same. Um, and I do want to, you know, bring this also
back to, as we’ve kind of  moved through
this conversation, ideas around Blackness and around the Black body. And so, I
want to maybe sort of, You know, come to a close, obviously continuing the
conversation offline and online, all that. But I wanna come to a close, around
the body and where you locate your body and all of this. How do you, how do
you, how do you feel right now also?

Caleb: I mean, it’s same as every day. You know, I just as tired, just as
mad, uh, Just as thankful. You know, I don’t oftentimes get to talk about these
things, right? Um, and you know, we’re using a lot more flowery language cause
of the podcast and shit like this. But at the end of the day, this is not
necessarily how I talk, um, when I’m raging about things. You know, like when
I’m wishing that people were loved in their fullness and shit like that, I
don’t talk about like, you know, the juncture of shit. And I’ll be like, Hey,
what you doing is fucked up. And I don’t wanna be a part of this shit anymore. So
my work in the past and also moving forward is a lot of divesting. So I did
that a lot towards the beginning and then, was kind of riding it for a while
and then, divesting even more because, you know, Older we get, the more that we
learn about things, I mean, cause TikTok exists. There’s all these secrets that
come out all the time, right? So like, oh, shit. Didn’t know that. So now that
I know that this is why I’m not doing anymore, it’s like revolutionaries, um,
cis revolutionaries, Black, cis, re uh, actually cis hat. We’ll just do, still go,
and eat it. Like Chick-fil-A knowing that they, hate gay people and love the
police. It’s like aight. If they hate gay people, they definitely hate trans
folks. Like, and so if they love the police, they definitely hate Black people.
Uh, so like, you know, where do these things connect and why are we refusing to
make these connections anyway? So, you know, um, I, what I know is that I will
continue to be more and more tired, which means that my community has to be
more and more intentional and more and more strong. Because, you know, while I
was doing a lot of this work, I was also very hyper independent. Shout out to
trauma. Uh, but as I’m healing, uh, the reality is that I know that I need
people and, I know that little Caleb needed people. and big Caleb definitely
needs people, um, because I’m too tired to do it on my own, and you cannot create
continuity by yourself. That’s not how it works. So that’s how I situate my Black
ass body in some bed somewhere asleep.

Gian: Important, Rest, Revolutionary. Yeah.
Shout out to rest. I mean, let’s go to bed. I feel like, In general, you know,
I’m kind of hearing, you know, your, your, your message and of course it’s much
more expansive than we can maybe talk about on this podcast with this language.
But if you have maybe some parting thoughts or, you know, if you really have
like a last kind of minute thing that you wanna say, I would love to hear that.
And if there’s also anything that you want to ask me or direct me to say, I
would also love to hear that. So, I will let you.

Caleb: Directing you to say that’s wild. you know, it’s Audre Lord, that
was like, caring for myself is not a, it’s not self-indulgence, it’s self-preservation.
And that is an act of political warfare. So like, yeah, go to sleep. Go to
sleep on these fools.

Gian:  Go lay down.  Yeah, lay that ass down. I think that one of
the most beautiful things that I have ever experienced people do, and obviously
this was modeled by Black queer women and non-binary folks, just non-men in
general, is allowing people. And not enabling them but allowing them with
resources and funds and things like that. Rest like, take your ass and go the
fuck to the bed. Go take a break. Go go somewhere and enjoy yourself. Go get
that joy because people have been conditioned, non-men have been conditioned to
work themselves literally to death. There been so many people recently that. That
have been, like prolific in the activism spaces, online, social media and
things that have not, , heart related, um, cancers, things like that just died.
And it’d be a lie to say that those things werent related to just the
lifetimes. Um, of, of labor, unpaid labor and agonizing trauma that they’ve
been through. People just get too tired, and they die. And so, yeah, take your
ass somewhere and rest. If you want to help Black people, give them money
because we know what to do with it. This has been the age-old thing. The fact
of the matter is that I don’t need you to hold space for me. Thank you so much
for holding space for me. I need your money. Because we are trying to build
things to survive you, and you’re over here trying to hold space for me with
energy and space that kills me. That’s wild. You’re so self-absorbed that you,
or you’re so intentional that you’re in the fact that you’re not the problem,
that you’re killing me with your solution. That’s wild.

Gian: I love, I love the, this, this statement, this energy, all of this,
it’s gonna be, I mean, I agree. I, it’s, I agree with it and I love the fact
that many people do not.

Caleb: Yeah. They’re gonna pissed.

Gian: Yeah. Yes. This is very interesting

Caleb:. It’s like, hey, I’m starving. And they’re like, hey, you wanna go
on a walk? It’s like, no. What are you talking about? Yeah. The nature’s so
beautiful. Ok. Like what? Yeah. Those are the people that kill us the most. And
I think that in this era especially, it’s those people that are like, oh my
God, I just wanna help. Like, why aren’t you letting me help? Uh, but they
don’t  know what we need. The people that
are most helpful just give us money. Like if I, if I need a specialist, I’ll go
to therapy. Like, if I need a specialist, I’ll call a plumber. Like, but I don’t
need you to like, hold space that does nothing for me. I don’t need you to hold
space, that doesn’t move me. I’m good.

Gian: Yeah, that’s real.

Caleb:  Yeah. So, be I, what do they
say? Die mad about it..

Gian: Die mad about it.

Caleb: Yeah. I guess.

Gian: Werq. Okay. So, yeah. Um, and on that note, uh, if un unless you
have anything else you wanna say, any other questions you wanna ask? Are you
good?

Caleb: I am good.

Gian: All right. Werq. Um, so I, yeah, I’m really glad that we had this
conversation. And, for those of you that want to, I’m now speaking directly to
the listeners and watchers. Uh, please comment. Uh, you know, like, and
subscribe all that social media bullshit, but also look, underneath this video
directly for the transcript for points that you can comment on, agree with,
disagree with, engage with. I’m really looking forward to hearing what people,
experience during this, during this podcast. So with that being said, I, I
guess we’ll say goodbye for now and stay critical.

With Jason Revere @jason.revere on Instagram, Owner of You Can Yoga  and Author of Get Your Head Out of Your Asana: The Yoga Book That Isn’t 

Gian: Okay. So, um, hey everyone. Uh, welcome to the Critical Beings Podcast. My name is Gian Hernandez. I am a postdoc at the University of Amsterdam in the Amsterdam School of Communication Research.

And today I’m very excited to welcome, uh, this episode’s guest. He is the owner of “You Can Yoga” Studio in Amsterdam. Author of the book, Get Your Head Out of Your Asana, and founder of a new developing space in northern Italy called L’Altra Riva for Community Living, getting off the Grid, yoga retreats, and, uh, more information, which I’m sure he’ll, uh, we will discuss.so please join me in welcoming Jason Revere. Hey Jason, how’s it going?

Jason: Hey, it’s going very well. Warm, but happy? Yes.

Gian: Nice, nice. And do you wanna give your, maybe yourself a little bit more of a, you know an extensive introduction. Do you wanna maybe talk a bit a bit about some of the things I’ve mentioned or maybe something I could add.

Jason: Um, I think you kind of, uh, covered all the bases. Uh, and probably the rest will just come out in conversation, like more detail. I mean, I could speak about what I do for hours on end, but you know, it’s your time, not mine.

Gian: It’s, it’s, no, it’s, it’s both of our time. I really want, I’m really excited to have like a conversation, right? Like it’s really about, you know, Juxtaposing our own. You know, I really appreciate your expertise and I hope I can, like, we can sort of have some, something a little more generative. You know what I mean? Right? Yeah, yeah.

Jason: Understand.

Gian: Cool. Cool. So, yeah, I mean, let’s, I guess we could just dive right into it.

So, the topic also for the listeners out there, I’m, I’m interested with this podcast to kind of delve into physical embodiment, the way people are different in their bodies, how bodies work, like what people’s perspectives are on bodies.

And because you are obviously a professional in a body-oriented field- yoga, I’m really curious to hear your, your thoughts and, and think about, you know, what it means to be critical, for example, right? I’m interested in this notion of be being “critical” and hence the title of the podcast, Critical Beings.

So, I guess let’s open up with that. What do you, what do you think of when I say the word critical, what does critical mean to you?

Jason: In relation to my work? or?

Gian: Yeah,

Jason: or in, or in general? Like

Gian: There’s no, there’s no wrong answers. I really just want to hear, you know, I wanna hear what you, what you have to say.

Jason: Well, based on what you’ve said so far and the variety of different body types, um, that’s one of the main things I push home to students who are doing intensive trainings and studies with me is, in the world of yoga, you have like Insta yogis. So, the people who are focused more on appearance and form and perfection and beauty and.

That’s the farthest thing from yoga you can actually imagine, and that has sort of destroyed and polluted the industry a lot. Um, but what I push home to people first is one, you are not a medical professional. You are not a physical therapist, so please do not give people this sort of unsolicited or solicited advice.

And two, if I’m teaching you form for an Asana, Asana are the poses. If I’m teaching you form, I’m using an illustration, but just because this is where the person in the illustration goes, that does not mean that’s where everyone should be. And when I’m teaching, I use different body types. Specifically for this purpose, I will make five people of different age, fitness level, flexibility level do the same exact position to show the students the variety, what to expect and why you should never push anyone to get to what you think is a perfect form.

You don’t know their bodies, you don’t know their joints, you don’t know anything about them. A stranger just walked into the room and is doing yoga with you. That’s all you know. So, to try to push your idea of the form of this position onto another person is ignorant and dangerous. Yes.

Gian: Hmm. I feel that. Yeah. Um, I did, so I lived in India for six months and I was struck by the, I would go, I would go to yoga every morning. And I was struck by the difference of like, having been in like more Western studios and then just how much of a, like, I mean, it sounds very cliche, but like how very, like no nonsense. Like none of this, you know, hodoo joojoo all this weird stuff around, around, um, like the mysticism and everything. Like, you know it, when I was there in India, it was just like, you know, people in a room doing yoga, trying to be flexible, like having a practice, and it was really, really nice.

Um, and I really appreciate this idea of like, okay, so you’re not this spiritual leader that’s trying to force your idea and you use this word push, right? Can you maybe say a little bit more about how you feel that some people maybe push too much?

Jason: Well, it depends. One on this, who, let’s say whoever we’re speaking about is motivation to do yoga, but a lot of schools in yoga, it’s really about form perfection.

You can’t do one pose unless you perfect the one before it. Um, I don’t want to talk negatively against any schools because that’s not the subject of this conversation, but it exists, and I know so many people who have been injured permanently. That, uh, because of this, this idea. Um, so, uh, yeah. Um, now I lost my train of thought.

Gian: Well, no, but like, but I that’s actually, I mean, Because the notion is critical, right? And we’re thinking about critique, we’re thinking about criticism. Right. Different things. But I’m just, I’m interested also in your perception of the field, and maybe you obviously don’t have to mention any specific names, but I really wanna hear about, you know, where you think you know, yoga is going or where you are thinking, you think, oh no, no.

Gian: The thing about

Jason: Bad and I lost, yeah. I don’t know. I don’t know what’s happening. I don’t know if it’s you or me. Hang on. But our video has completely frozen. Yeah.

Gian: Hang on, hang on. It just started.

Jason: Okay.

Gian: Wait, I’m, I,

Jason: You’re back now and everything is stable, so maybe you can edit that out and we start over with your question.

Gian: Yeah, yeah. Let’s, let’s, um, let’s go back. Okay. So, um, I don’t know how much of my question you heard.

Jason: Just say the whole thing again.

Gian: Okay. Okay. So, um, you don’t have to, so I’m interested in, in hearing what you said about, you know, the field and, and you don’t have to mention any other, any other names of, of schools, but I’m, I, I, I do actually wanna hear what your, what your ideas are on, you know, where, for example, uh, yoga is going as a whole and how you think, uh, you know, these different body types or, or, or any other different kinds of approaches might fit in.

Jason: Right. Okay. Well, the thing about yoga is it is it comes from, uh, a vast body of knowledge, right? And you can choose which of those you would like to follow. Um, that’s why there are so many different, uh, schools with a completely different approach to yoga, what it is, how to practice, but. Fundamentally, yoga is one thing.

Quieting the mind. That’s it. That’s what you’re trying to do. When people use the word “union”, it’s misinterpreted as, oh, I want to unify myself with like, uh, with God or whatever. Body mind connection. No, it’s about, one, developing a sense of awareness. And using that sense of awareness to hone your focus so that you can focus on one thing and not be trapped in the continuous cycle of the mind, always needing some sorts of stimulation, justification, validation, whatever you wanna call it.

All you’re trying to do at the end of the day in yoga is destroy the idea of a separate sense of self. That’s what’s meant by union, if you will, but it’s not unifying yourself with something. It’s removing the belief or idea that you are a separate self from the whole. Um, do you want me to go deeper into that? Like do you want me to break down terminology for you?

Gian: Well, no, no. I mean, so, so I already, I already have a bunch of questions, so let’s maybe let, like, so, so I’m interested because you, it’s, I hear it’s. And this is also something, you know, like I, I’ve, I’ve spoken to other yoga folks and also like mental health professionals and stuff, and there’s obviously this like Cartesian notion of the separate mind and body.

so, I’m hearing sort of shadows of that as well and what you’re saying, where, where is the body, what can you, can you maybe expand a little bit more on like what role does the body play in this union.

Jason: Alright, so back to the beginning. 3, 3, 3 basic terms just to help with the descriptive process. So there’s. Brahman basically means consciousness. Everything is Brahman. Now, your experience of Brahman from your biological bag of flesh, that is our vehicle that’s considered Atman, right? But Ataman is one small piece of Brahman, everything that Atman is experiencing, which is outside of the body.

It is called Maya. Maya means illusion. So, everything that you think, experience, believe, is all an illusion, and it’s all built on your conditioning, your development, your separate sense of self. So, what you’re trying to do in yoga is first calm down your mind so that you can learn how to focus on one thing, right?

Then you try to find one thing that you would like to focus on, and that’s going to be the question that drives your practice. I make all my students have a question, like, why are you doing this? Let’s start there.

And you take this focus, you apply it to this question until that question starts to disassemble and fall apart because anything under deep inspection will start to dismantle itself, and that’s what you’re trying to do. But you’re trying to do that with the idea of yourself, and that’s the basis of what a yoga practice is. It’s not about the body. The body is just one tool. And yoga you have, they’re called the four paths, right?

So, you have Jnana Yoga, which is the philosophical branch of yoga. Then you have Rāja Yoga, which is the scientific branch of yoga, which is where Hatha yoga falls into place, which is the use of the body. Then you have Karma yoga, which is selfless service, and then you have Bhakti yoga, which is more devotional and think religious like chanting, devoting your life to a deity.

But the goal of all of those is the same thing. To remove you from the idea that you are a separate self apart from consciousness. Everything is the same, everything is consciousness. Anything outside of that falls in the realm of Maya, and you just believe that it’s true, but it doesn’t make it true.

Gian: Okay. Yeah. No, but I mean, so because I, I keep coming back to also, you know, just. Because of my interest in embodiment and also like the podcast and everything, I keep coming. I really like this. Or I, I’m curious more about this information about this formulation of your body is a tool. What is it a tool for that?

Jason: I can’t tell you that, but in yoga, it’s the only vehicle we have, right? It’s all you, it’s all you know, and it’s the only thing you can use to reach your goal, whatever that goal may be. In yoga, the goal is to remove the idea of a separate sense of self. So, we use our bodies to get to this point, to focus, how?

By changing our physiological state, by starting with the breathing. Once you can get your body to do, it’s called a full yogic breath. When you’re using all three stages of breath, right? When you’re breathing deep and slow and properly. You flip your physiological state from fight or flight to rest and restore from the bear is chasing me to there is no bear.

And only when you get to the sense of there is no bear, can the mind start to slow down in focus because you’ve removed this idea of stress and you’ve used your body as a tool to change the flux of the mind.

Gian: Humm, yeah. That makes, I mean, yeah, that makes sense. It’s also interesting especially thinking about one of my sort of research orientations is thinking of the interview as an affective, embodied interaction and not necessarily like a sort of extractive practice where I’m getting information out of you, which is why I encourage like, disagreement, tension, you know, asking me questions, like all of those things.

Like that’s, I think that’s really cool. But also, I noticed that, as you mentioned this deep breathing, I started breathing more deeply. I started diaphragmatic breathing. Um, cuz I trained as a, as a musician, I have a degree in trumpet. And so, I was like, Ooh, let me stop breathing at the clavicle and let me start breathing down to where I would have to, you know, like shoot some high notes out there.So, I was like, oh, that, that’s also physiologically something that uh…

Jason: And it immediately has an effect.

Gian: Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

Jason: And it, that is the crux of developing a yoga practice. The first thing I ask, how’s your breathing? If you’re breathing properly, then I want to get to your mind, but I don’t wanna fuck around in your mind if you’re in some sort of hyper state or your breath is short.

No, because then I’m there. There’s too much going on for me to even get you to be able to focus on something. So the first thing you have to do is just sort of bring people down. Hmm. And I have this effect on people in general. I notice when I’m in a group, all of a sudden, after just a couple of minutes, the people around me start sitting up straighter.

Gian: That’s, yeah. No, I get, I get that. I think you’ve actually asked me, when we’ve hung out before. I think you’ve asked me “how’s your breathing?” before. So I was like, oh. Uh, nice.

Jason: That’s a common question from me.

Gian: Yeah. Well, it makes sense. “How’s your breathing?” I get my students when I’m teaching and they’re everywhere.

And for example, I’m teaching a course this, this, uh, block where it’s from 1:00 PM to 5:00 PM and in the summer in Amsterdam, when it’s beautiful out and it’s 29 degrees and they’re just all over the place. And so, I just tell them to like, We, we, I make them stand up. We do two or three deep breaths in and out, in through the nose, out through the mouth, and then they sit back down and the, as you say, the effect is so immediate because before they were like all crazy.

And then, you know, you sit back, sit back down, and then they can pay attention for another 15, 20 minutes.

Jason: But it, it’s also an easy exercise in tool to show me at a conference.

*Technical difficulties*

Jason: Okay. So. It’s a very good exercise, right? Teaching people to use the breath to see the impact it can immediately have on their ability to focus. I was speaking at a conference in Berlin once a few years ago, and I did this exercise with the, the crowd where I had them just sit. And I tried to get them to focus on one object.

I used an apple, like, just, I want you to close your eyes, visualize this apple in your mind, and the moment you’ve lost the apple, raise your hand. And literally, within a matter of no time, the whole audience’s hands were up. No apple. So, Then I made them stand up. I made them open their chest, open their ribcage, take a few deep breaths, stimulate the diaphragm, do a few exercise-

*Technical difficulties*

Jason: Right? They lost the apple. So, I had them all take a moment. Stand up. Um, And, uh, do some basic, uh, exercises to release the diaphragm, to expand their lung capacity, and then sit back down and do the same exercise and notice a dramatic, dramatic improvement on how they could focus, you know, I also played with their mind in other ways, but that’s not relevant.We can talk about that maybe later.

Gian: Okay. Okay.

Jason: No, it was funny. I will tell you since I brought it up, you can decide to keep it in your, uh, in your, uh, podcast or not. But when I arrived at this conference, I showed up wearing a turban, beads, a colorful robe. I was really dressed like the guru part, you know.

And I showed up intentionally early at this conference to walk around the crowds in the public spaces, you know, just to start making this visual for them. And for the first like five minutes, I was on stage talking in a very soft, very peaceful, very stereotypical sort of yoga guru. And I also had them close their eyes and embellish the story.

Who they think I am based on what they know so far. And while they had their eyes closed, I just got into normal street clothes. And then I had them open their eyes and I was like, okay, how true was your story? How true was this character you were building of me? Because this is another version of me. So now there’s 125 of you in the audience.

You each have your own different version of me, and that’s what we do every day, with the way we build the universe around us. And yours is unique to yourself, but now you see how flawed it is because you who knows what you thought about me in those few minutes. And now that’s completely changed just because I changed my clothes and how I’m speaking to you.Yeah.

Gian: That’s, but that’s super, that’s very, that’s super relevant for, for this podcast, for my research for like, my perception of the world because I definitely, I mean, a lot of stuff has been written about, uh, embodiment and, and also clothing and, and appearance and perception. So that’s I appreciate you are sharing that story cuz it’s, it definitely kind of relates a little bit more also to some of the questions I’m gonna ask later.

Um, okay. But yeah, no, okay. So, you know, we talk about this, uh, different embodiment or different, you know, way of presenting yourself and how it affects how we perceive the world. Do you notice that maybe in other contexts or like from maybe your own perspectives, maybe you could expand a little bit on that?

Jason: Well, I’ve been doing this work for a very long time, and I am at the point where nothing is real. I don’t believe my own thoughts. The only truth is what’s happening right now. Everything else. Is just sort of, uh, you know, bullshit really. So, I, it’s hard to even get involved or attached to it, but I’ve been looking at this and questioning this for a very long time.

Mm-hmm. I mean, that’s what you’re supposed to be doing in yoga, not putting your foot behind your head, removing the idea of who and what you think you are. Yeah.

Gian: Okay. That makes sense. Yeah. But, so, so, yeah, but like, I think I’m also like, you know, you say you’ve been, you’ve been practicing this work and you also, you know, use your, your body in, at least at this, at this particular juncture, like as a presentational tool.

Is there other ways that you maybe use your body for this kind of work? Right. It’s, I mean, yoga, maybe I’m completely mistaken. And, and from the way you’re constructing it, I am, but there’s also a physical, a physical embodied aspect of it. How do you, as you know, who you are as this, this person, how does that kind of figure into, um, your practice?

Jason: Well, I mean you, the whole goal of doing Asana in yoga it’s twofold, right? One, it’s to use your body as a tool to teach yourself focus, and the other is to prepare your body to be fit and supple enough to sit in meditation for hours at a time. That’s why Yogis did Asana was so that if they sat in a cross-legged sitting position with, you know, there it’s called Sushumna Nadi.

Like that’s another, that’s a side, that’s a sidebar in a straight line. So, your spine is erect, your chest is open, your feet are crossed. You can stay there with no physical complaints to distract you from trying to focus your mind. That’s it. That’s, that’s the embodiment of the physical aspect of yoga.

Gian: And for, and how relevant is that for you? I mean, I kind of sense a little bit of a, um,

Jason: I mean, it’s extremely relevant. I do yoga because I want to keep my body fit and strong so that I can enjoy my life to its fullest extent.

Gian: Okay. Nice. That’s it. That’s it. And do you, do you, I mean, maybe a plug for your own, own, uh, uh, uh, practice, school physicality, whatever.

Do you, are you, is it working?

Jason: Yes, Hahaha it’s working very well. Yeah.

Gian: Yeah. Yeah. Nice, nice. Okay. Indeed. Yeah. So, yeah. But, so can you, can you also, I mean, we, we talked a little bit about at the beginning, but can you maybe also expand on how your I guess your profession or your physicality or your embodiment, how it manifests in what you’re currently undertaking this, this project in, in, Italy.

Jason: Well, I mean, oof, that’s a, that’s a broad, uh, Let me, let me think of how I can, uh, make that clear.

How does the embodiment of my work thus far affect my present situation in regard to what I’m working on now in Italy? That’s, that’s your question, right?

Gian: Yeah.

Jason: Okay. Had I not been the sort of focused, driven, uh, entrepreneur with the help of my yoga practice, I would never have made it this far.

Plain and simple. It has taken me over a decade to reach the point in my career where I’m at right now, and to build and create the opportunities and possibilities that now sit in front of me and that are allowing me to create and to facilitate the creation of this dream project that I’m working on now.

Yeah. And yoga is a huge part of that, because without it, I wouldn’t have had my focus or my drive or found my, my personal intention was behind why I do what I do. That’s, that’s another big question for all of my students. What do you want? Why are you here? Why are you doing what you do? Answer me that, and then let’s continue the, the discussion, you know?

And I see it in the course of my life and my work and the choices I’ve made, and all of that is connected to me knowing what I want, using my practice to stay focused in, driven in the direction to what it is, what I want.

Gian: Yeah. So, you would say that your, your body really facilitates all of this, what’s currently happening?

Jason: The use of my body has helped me direct the focus of my mind and to also show me what is innately mine and what I truly want and not what I want based on current emotional states, fluxes, and, uh, who and what I think I am. No, no, no, no.

So yes. It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s been the driving factor. Yeah. But in yoga, we call your body, your vehicle.

Gian Mm-hmm.

Jason: That’s it. It’s not who you are, it’s not what you are, it’s your car. Take care of it.

Gian: Sure. Yeah. Is there, but is there, so as maybe, um, you know, to frame this a little bit or to, to put, put a little bit of nuance on it, is there anything about, about your body that might not facilitate or maybe even hinder. Um, your current undertaking or what, what direction you might want to go in?

Jason: I mean, the simple fact that I’m middle aged and I’m 46 and things are starting to change. Yes. Energy levels, hormone levels, you know, that’s, that’s a true factor of life. And it’s also something that is taught in yoga. Like it’s another reason why you want to maintain an Asana practice and good breathing and good health, so that as the body starts to, let’s say, not deteriorate, but rejuvenate at a slower level or a slower pace, you still have, uh, a good quality of life. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

But no, of course, I’m not gonna lie, I’m 46. I exhaust more easily, but if I compare myself to other people of my age with different lifestyles, there’s a tremendous difference in what we can do with our physical bodies for sure.

Gian: Yeah. Okay. Nice. Yeah, I mean, comparison, it, it’s similarly, it’s a useful tool, but it, you know, also, with that sense, but I think I’m also curious as well about, so we talked a little bit about the field and like, I obviously don’t want you to mention other schools, but I also think I, I wanna hear about your, perspective on sort of your practice in comparison to other practices and how that might shape yoga as a whole.

Do you think that there’s something about maybe your embodiment or, or you know, what you’re doing or sort of what the effects that might have and, and if you could maybe contribute something, what would that thing be?

Jason: I think that doesn’t have much to do with the body, but it has more to do with the mind.

Gian: Okay.

Jason: And what’s driving an individual person to do yoga in the first place? Do they just wanna look better in their swimming suits, or do they want maybe a more peaceful, stable life? Or do they want to question all of the bullshit they throw at themselves every day? So that’s really down to the individual.

And a lot of schools of yoga are also lost in the dogma of worshiping or praising a teacher or a guru instead of actually doing introspective work. Yeah.

Gian: And so, I think maybe we, we can find a link also. And so, so we have introspective and then this notion of critical right? Being sort of self-reflective in that sense.

Jason: I mean, I could be highly critical of yoga as an industry, like I can tear it to shreds. I’ve written so many articles about specific schools of yoga approaches to yoga, what yoga is, and it’s. It is an industry now, you know, it is a massive global industry and a lot of parts of it are toxic in the sense that people get trapped.

Yeah. Because they don’t know any better. They think, ah, I have this teacher, I like her, she’s good. I’ll do whatever she says cuz she knows yoga. But if you actually investigated this person’s background, History, their lineage of study. You might wanna rethink blindly following them, and I guess that’s where being critical would come into your yoga practice.

You should criticize your teachers. You should question everything anyone is telling you, especially in regard to yoga, because it’s such a vast body of knowledge and there is no governing body that says, this school knows what they’re talking about. There isn’t. So, you should be highly critical of your yoga teachers.

I tell it to my students all the time. Question everything I’m saying too, you know. That’s part of introspection as well, and looking at who you are, what you want, and why you’re doing what you’re doing. Be critical of yourself.

Gian: Yeah. I literally just had this conversation about, uh, researcher positionality with students that I’m teaching methods to right now, and I’m just saying one perspective. Um, but I would highly recommend that you, you know, explore multiple,

Jason: As many as you can.

Gian: Yeah. And then choose for yourself, right. You know? Yes. Yeah. Make your, make your own decision, but from an informed place. Um, yeah, that’s, that’s super great. But I also, you know, I, I hear, um, you know, There’s, then of course we should critique institutions.

We should, you know, uh, it’d be offer some sort of self-introspection. But I also wanna locate sort of, um, the individuals that you. Um, might be speaking to or speaking with. Um, do you think that, for example, there, um, maybe different embodiments might matter or is it kind of, cuz I, I hear you talking, it’s mostly a, a cerebral thing or maybe a, a spiritual thing, but I also kind of want to get at like, What kind of, you know, I asked about your body and how it influences your practice, and I wanna know if you might have any thoughts on, on sort of your students’ bodies or like the general sort of yoga student body, uh, what that might look like. Like what are your, what are your, what’s your opinion on this?

Jason: Um, that it’s extremely vast and everybody is unique and how people use it is really up to them. All I can do as a teacher is maybe hold a mirror in front of them and then maybe guide them in a direction that serves their intended purpose to the best of their ability, and that’s it.

You know, every single body is unique. Yes, our muscular and skeletal systems are structurally the same, but your hips are different than my hips. Her knees are different than my knee. That’s why you, there’s no, there’s no one shape to fit everyone in and. That leads to limitations. Some people will never be able to use their body like another person or myself, just because their joint structures won’t allow it.

It’s not up to how they exercise or how much they stretch or how much they move. No, that’s just how your specific body came out. Not your fault. It has nothing to do with you, that’s just your genes.

Gian: But you would nevertheless still say that these kinds of because I I hear also in like physical industries where it’s like, oh, I’m not. You know, flexible enough, or I’m not strong enough to do this, or my body isn’t welcome in these, in these spaces. Do you have, is there some, have you ever exp is there have, have you had an experience of this where people are like, oh, I’m just not gonna, this is just not my thing. So, you know, because of my body.

Jason: uh, when people tell me that, I’m like, um, that’s like saying you’re too dirty to shower. Okay, you gotta start somewhere. Well, yeah, you know, And if somebody says, oh, I am not flexible, I can’t do yoga. Flexibility is a side effect of a yoga practice. It is not the goal. That’s why you need to first determine what is your goal and can I help you get there? And if so, how? That’s all.

Gian: nice. Yeah. Yeah, no I’ve, I’ve heard a lot about, you know, from your, from this conversation about kind of what your, your practice is, how you, how you conceptualize it. But I would like, I would like to kind of, um, not, uh, you know, move, move towards the end of the interview. With maybe a message or a takeaway thing about your passions.

Like if I say, what is, what are you most passionate about? What kind of message do you wanna put out there regarding body work regarding physicality, regarding embodiment? Um, what would it be if I, if you had to say a few words about it.

Jason: First, know what you want, and know that what you think you want is coming from a genuine place.

And it’s not coming from a place of an erratic, emotional state. Really question your desires, your motivations, and your intentions. Because if something comes from a, what I like to say, a place of truth inside yourself, it comes without any baggage. There’s no question to it. But if something comes up in your mind, but then it’s layered with, oh, but this, and what about that, then maybe that’s not really what you want.

You know, if people say a lot about your gut reaction and these exercises about, I’m gonna count to three and ask you a question, tell me the first thing that comes to your mind. Right, something like this, what is it? We all know deep down inside what we want, but it’s covered in trauma, conditioning, insecurity, fear, many, many layers.

You need to get to the meat. You need to get to the heart of it, and that’s what doing yoga does if it’s done properly. And that’s all I try to encourage to my students. What, when I start an intensive training course, that’s that’s what I get. That’s the first thing I ask my students, what do you want and why are you here?

And let’s figure that out first. It’s very confronting for people. A lot of them cry, but you really get them to question their motives, but from a place of like truth and awareness. Not just impulsivity and trying to escape one thing and jump into another. No, it’s that, and that’s why I do what I do and that’s how I do it.

But from another angle, I’m a community person at heart. My ethos in business is how can I create something that many people can benefit from and share because. I also know that I’ve gotten where I’m at in my life because I’ve asked for help from other people along the way, and I’ve been assisted by other people along the way.

So, I try to do the same thing in how I create new businesses, new concepts, new communities, and that’s what drives me personally, is creating something that. I know I can share with other people and give them opportunities that they may never have had before in their life. Um, I’m also not blind to the fact that I’m a white American man with a certain layer of entitlement.

And I have never taken that for granted, ever. I have used it to the best of my ability, but with what I’ve gained, I have felt responsible to share it with people who didn’t have the same possibilities and opportunities, and that is vital for me and how I live my life. Yeah.

Gian: Nice. So, what I’m hearing also, I mean, There’s, there’s this, um, sort of embodied knowledge, right?

You have, it’s, it’s, you use, you know, get to the meat and, and knowing what you want, and it’s this gut reaction and it’s buried under a lot of things. And I think that, you know, at least for me, what resonated was like, we know things that aren’t kind of up here, right? That aren’t sort of, In the cerebral sense, and we can kind of know with our bodies, right?

So that, that, I think that was, that was kinda one piece of what I, you know, picked up on. And then, um, this notion of community I think is really important and it’s probably a good, uh, good note to end on. Um, but how do we, you know, relate to one another also, in terms of our different physicality? I think this is really, really important and it’s always, as, you know, as the, the topic of this podcast, important to be critical about it.

So, yeah. Yeah. I really appreciate, you know, these, uh, these thoughts and insights. Um, And I think, I think, yeah, like I said, it’s, this is a good place to, to put a, uh, a semicolon. Let, okay. We’ll on, we know, we’ll, uh, continue conversations and

Jason: If you wanna know more personally, do some work with me.

Gian: Yeah, I mean this, that’s, so, so I have, I have two, two questions kind of in, in terms of wrapping up. One is would you like to say, ask me anything or say anything to me as the first one and the second one? Is there anything that you would like to. quote, plug right to, to promote or to have out there in the way.

Jason: I mean, if I’m gonna first take this opportunity to plug things, um, I always tell my students before they decide to train with me hardcore, read my book first, because you might think I’m an asshole. You might disagree with everything I’m saying, or it might resonate with you. So yes, get your head out of your Asana.

And I chose that specific title because in. The yoga world, at least in the West. In contemporary yoga, people are fixated on form, right and appearance and how they look when they do yoga. This is why I don’t have mirrors in my schools. I don’t want you to look at yourself. I want you to look inside yourself.

Your body will tell you what it needs and wants without you staring at it while you’re trying to get into some sort of idealized sense of perfection. So, no, that’s not gonna happen here. At least not in my space. You know? Secondly, if I’m gonna plug something, my schools, YouCan yoga. And third, this project that I’m currently sitting in right now building and developing is this community space inside a farming village. I wouldn’t even call it a village. It’s more like a hamlet. It’s just a cluster of little houses and farms in the middle of the Antonina mountains in the north of Italy. Um, it’s an old hotel, restaurant and bar, and we’re turning it into a farms table restaurant, but also a space for yoga retreats and. Just a place to come. Turn off your phone, listen to the river, get into nature. Leave the the, the rat race behind because you’re gonna die too.

And is everything you’re fighting for. So important that you need to be constantly stressed and busy to make it happen.Take some space, slow down, and that’s what I’m trying to build here.

Gian: Yeah. Nice. Yeah.

Jason: And if I wanted to ask you something, why are you doing this?

Gian: Uh, that’s a good, how’s my breathing? Uh, yes. There’s a, there’s a number of of reasons I, obviously like the logistical things in terms of research. Um, this is going to be. A simultaneous research output. So, I gained some funding for this and I wanted to kind of have my, my thinking out there in terms of what constitutes criticality, what constitutes embodiment.

I also wanted to talk to people and engage and have fun and listen to really interesting thoughts and perspectives. Um, and I also wanted to pay people for their time because I, that’s important. so that was also part of the funding, right? Like this is very, very transparent and political and, and, and, you know, and, and political.

Yes. Yeah. So, so I think, you know, those are the logistic things. But ultimately, I mean, if you wanna talk about purpose, this is a research endeavor is because I want to be the person that I needed to see when I was younger. Um, so when I put myself out there and when I try to achieve my goals, a lot of it is kind of, you know, uh, sort of salvaging or saving even my inner child.

Um, so yeah, I’ve, given it some thought I would say in terms of being critical in, in self-reflection. Uh, but yeah, those are, those are, I would say the kind of.

Jason: But I think that’s beautiful. I think as adults we should all strive to be the adults that were missing when we were kids.

Gian: I think. I think, I think so too.

Jason: I think can you make the best adult.

Gian: Be the best adult. And I also think, you know, going back to sort of like indigenous theory and stuff, like we should also strive to not only be good, you know, descendants, but also good ancestors, right? So we are trying to relate to, you know, people that came before us, but we should also think about how we relate to the people that will come after us.

I don’t plan on having kids. But I also think, you know, for me it’s really important to kind of, you know, be a role model, instill the next generation, help you know, when with whatever I can, maybe, be it teaching or you know, physical labor or whatever, um, you knowto do something, you know, positive somehow.So that’s, that’s kind of where I’m at.

Jason: Great.

Gian:  Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Well, um, I guess, yeah, that’ll be, um, the, the, the podcast. Uh, I’d, I’d like to thank everybody for listening. We’re going to plug Jason’s stuff, um, in the sort of underneath the comments below, that kind of thing.

Jason:  Uh, and yeah.

Gian:   please say again?

Jason:  I said, plug away,

Gian:  plug away, plug away.

But then, and also, and this is, this is a, a call, uh, a call to arms. Um, I really would love to continue this conversation, um, with Jason, but also with the, the listeners, right? So, underneath this is going to be the transcript. You can see it now, and I would really love if you guys could comment on it, you know, engage with it,even if you, you know, share it on social media, that kind of thing.

Um, so this would really, really help out this project. And also, for. Gaining insights into what constitutes criticality. Um, so that’d be really, really helpful. So, if you guys are listen watching, um, listening, whatever, uh, please, you know, help us out and also stay critical.

Jason: Yes. And you can also drop my, like, personal information if any of this resonates with someone and they’re curious about the project or schools or whatever.

I’m hosting people for free all summer. If anyone just wants to come and chill out and help me paint some walls. You know, come, come to the mountains. Great. I’m here until September.

Gian: Great. Great. Great. Okay,

Jason: Cool. Alright. Thank you very, yeah.

Gian: Thank you for coming. Thanks for, thanks for your thoughts. Thanks for, um, all of this wonderful information and, um, yeah.

Nice.

Jason: How was your breathing? Hahaha

Gian: All right. Cool. Talk to you later.