With Dr. Roc Rochon, @pcswakework on Instagram,  founder of Rooted Resistance and co-editor of Deconstructing the Fitness Industrial Complex  

(if you are interested in purchasing the book, please consider avoiding Amazon/going through local vendors)

Gian: hey everybody. I’m Gian Hernandez. I’m a postdoc at the University of Amsterdam, in the Amsterdam School of Communication Research, and this is the Critical Beings Podcast. Today’s guest is the recently minted Dr. Roc Rochon, who is the founder of Rooted Resistance, a grassroots practice that is committed to reimagining movement for queer, trans, and non-binary people. And one of the editors of the 2023 volume “Deconstructing the Fitness Industrial Complex: How To Resist, Disrupt, And Reclaim What It Means To Be Fit In American Culture.” I’m really looking forward to today’s conversation and uh, yeah. Let’s welcome Dr. Roc Rochon. How are you doing?

Roc: Good. Thank you so much. I’m happy to be here with you. Excited for
our conversation.

Gian: Yeah. Is there anything that you would like to add to this already?
Super interesting, info. I mean, there’s probably more that we could talk
about. Any points caveats, something you’d like to specify? I’m sure we’ll talk
about it as well as we get through the, through the, through the interview.

Roc: Yeah. I think the only thing that I would. Kinda share, and I think
we’ll get more into it, as you just said, is that some of the things we’re
gonna be talking about are, um, extend far and wide, through so many different
communities, globally as you shared earlier in our pre-talk. So, I just, I hope
that people really think about that.Like a lot of this work is not new. There’s
a lineage and legacy of it, existing through many of our bodies.

Gian: Love that. Yeah, exactly. So, we’re definitely, I mean, we’re about
to get right into like that is exactly what this is about. So, can you just
maybe talk a little bit about your work and what you do, what you feel
passionate about, what excites you? Yeah, just hit us with the knowledge.

Roc: Yeah. You know, when I think of this question, I always like to
start. Like as a child, as a youth playing sports and physical being, you know,
participating in physical activity and really recreation recreational sport in
the town that I grew up in, and having access to that. But then as I aged a
little bit and got into high school and became a teenager. I started seeing
what I would say is inequality, social inequality through sport. And I saw that
as our practice time, our fields, our equipment, and also the fact that many of
our coaches for certain sports, we had different coaches every year. So,
thinking about continuity and discontinuity in terms of community building and
building trust with people and reliable community members showing up. So, I
like to think about my background is sport management. Or that’s at least the
broad field that the work that I do is, is situated under. I like to think
about kinda social inequality, oppression and power in those terms through the
avenue of sport.

Gian: Oh, okay. And so, you’re, so sport management might be, let’s say,
one of the, the kind of fields that you’re, you’re moving in, but can you talk
a little bit more about also your work in rooted resistance? I’m sure there’s
so much, uh, linkage there.

Roc: Absolutely. And, you know, we could examine and interrogate sport
management as a field. I think I like to situate myself in critical sports
studies, and I think we’ll get to some of that a bit later. But, you know, if
someone’s asking me, oh, what did you study? You know, I, I say different
things to different people because often if I say sport management, it’s like,
oh, you want to be a general manager? And it’s like, no, actually I want to
interrogate the sport industry, but also leverage and situate grassroots sporting.
So, I think about root of resistance and how I came to that. I was a college
athlete at a D-3 school. I played softball there. So, I have this history of
being in athletics. After I graduated, I participated in like, you know,
recreation, sport, post-graduation, you know, slow pitch softball, uh,
volleyball leagues. What I like to consider, some people consider that informal
sport, a community-based sport, and I always had just different experiences
participating in that, in ways that felt better, less regimented, less rigid,
but I also started power lifting, at one point. I really got into strength
training. Prior to that, I played on a tackle football team and I got a
concussion. And a part of my healing process was to put weight on the barbell
and be able to count it, you know, that helped my brain get back into this
flow. But in the mix of all of that, I got connected to power lifting and in
that space, It was very generative for me, but it was also like, I’m, I still
can’t be my full self or I’m showing up as my full self, but there’s this, you
know, questioning and assumption about like non-binary and trans people in a
way that to me, felt harmful. So, I’m like, I’m divesting, I’m not, you know,
I’m not gonna compete in certain federations. And so, what happened? And I’m
gonna get to rooted resistance, what happened in this power lifting space? I
started inviting some of my queer trans friends, and then I was like, I can’t
invite them into this space, actually. You know, we trained a couple times together
and I’m like, this space, this is not gonna work. So, I was like, let’s just
work out outside, like let’s just train together outside. And I started doing
that just one-on-one with people. And black trans men especially would contact
me through Instagram and say, hey, can we train together in Tampa? And many of
them had gym memberships, so we would go train together. And then we just got
to a point where it was like, let’s just train outside, and we’re having these
political conversations. While we’re moving our bodies about transness, you
know, about queerness, about oppression, structural oppression, and it’s just
like, then we start talking about the land and the history of the land. So,
rooted resistance started, I think it started be before me, you know what I
mean? Like before my physical being.  But
it started in 2016 in Tampa when I just was like, I’m sick of going into a
fitness center. I’m tired of that. You know, I don’t want to be stared at, I
don’t want the gaze there, I don’t want to have to interact with people that
don’t know me, and I don’t know them. So that’s how, that’s the inception of
it. And it started as one-on-one training and then I had a full-time job at the
time, and I really didn’t have time to just keep training people one-on-one.
So, I was like, let’s start doing group training. And I asked the individuals
that I was working with, how would you all feel about that? And they were like,
let’s do it. So that’s how this kind of group collective rooted resistance
came. And I see it as this democratic process where the participants, who I’ve
met over the years have really, uh, shared how they want things to go.

Gian: Wow.  I’m so

Roc: Yeah.

Gian: I’m so, I’m so in awe. Like that’s, that’s amazing. I see so many
things that I really want to touch on. This idea of being contextual and
saying, you know, what did you study? And like having different answers for
different people. I see a lot of parallels for like different identity
constructs that we have. Like for me, if I talk to somebody and they’re like,
oh, so where are you from? It like, depends on who the person is and like what
they, you know? I especially in, yeah. I live in Europe, right? And people have
this thing about like, “oh, where are you really from?”  But if it’s like a European PoC  like I really feel like that’s like, has a
different valence. And so, this contextuality piece is super important. But
that’s, that’s, I mean, that’s like a side note, but it’s also like integrated.
Right. But speaking of integration, I really like this notion of connectedness
that you bring up and how your brain and your body, when you talk about healing
are so interwoven because we often think of ourselves as like separate things,
right? Like my brain and my body don’t do the same stuff. And then linking that
to this idea of connecting to yourself and then connecting to individuals and
then connecting to communities, that is like, that’s beautiful. And that is, so
necessary for, you know, the kind of work that that needs to be done. So, I’m
just really glad that you are here to share this message. And you even already
like preempting some of the questions that I wanna ask. You mentioned also
like, critical and like you’re in critical sort of sports studies or critical
fitness studies and these kinds of things. And so, I just kind of wanted to ask
how your work looks in relation to that. Like what is, what is rooted
resistance or what does your writing for example, look like when it comes to,
to notions of criticality, for example?

Roc: I think about the work that I do, I wanna say at three
intersections, but it might be more, but I’ll say three intersections, and
like, you know, my degree will say sport management, you know, that’s what’ll
be printed on the paper. But there’s also like, I guess what people would call
subfields, and that’s not the best descriptive word. But there’s physical
cultural studies and that’s how I like to see my work. You know, yes, my degree
is in sport management, but I studied cultural studies and sport media studies
essentially. And so, thinking about cultural studies, Black studies, and the
sociology of sport, that’s my work is interwoven in all of those. And I think,
you know, we could interrogate each one of them, but something for me, and what
I noticed within these fields or the field of sport management, is that, There
we need to interrogate more why we’re not focusing on and really doing the work
of reading, work in Black studies. I think of my dissertation is rooted in
Christina Sharpes in the Wake, um, and Wake Theory.And Ben Carrington’s and
Paul Gilroy’s kind of concepts of the diaspora, um, the Black diaspora, the
African diaspora, and I see myself as a diasporic person, a Black diasporic
person. So, when I think about my work, and what critical, criticality means,
it’s, it’s about interrogating. It’s about examining, and it, for me, in a Black
body, it’s also not just about Black death, but it’s Black, about Black life, Black
being, how we see ourselves outside of this kind of exploitative, commercialized
sport in the Bblack body in that way. But there’s also, what I argue is
something else happening here, like at the grassroots level. And I would say,
you know, even that term is, I mean, a made-up term, but at the community
level, the cultural work level, Ancient traditional medicine level, you know
what I mean? Like medicinal healing, which now we have all these different
words that, interject into what that might have meant for our ancestors or, but
so I see it critical as we cannot talk about sport without talking about
settler colonialism or without talking about enslavement of Black bodies and
the interconnection between. What it means, what settler colonialism means, as
this ongoing structural project, what the, I would say remnants of or continuation
the continuity of enslavement means like, to me, that’s a place to start.
That’s a starting point, not a place to just kind of footnote, if you will.

Gian: Completely. Yeah.  And I
mean, I love, uh, Sharp’s work. Like, like, uh, I, I once had a summer reading
group and it was just one of my, the favorite points of my life to just discuss
these ideas. And I think, you know, what I find most interesting about this
idea of the wake is how it’s so non extractive. And I try to do this here as
well, right? Where I’m not having a research interview where I’m trying to get
information out of. My participants, I’m really wanting to, you know,
highlight, uplift, create connection, create community, and with this in the
notion of the wake, right? And having kind of these sort of reverberating waves
of like kind of going out into the, into the world. And so, my question also
for you and somebody who is, you know, obviously deeply entrenched in these
kinds of knowledge flows, how do you identify with other people doing? Or not
at all. Right. How, if at all, do you identify with other people doing this
work? Is do you find that it resonates in sports management? Do you find, cause
you’re saying that like, we should be paying attention to Black studies
scholars. I agree, but how do you, you, how do you see that manifesting
practically in the various fields in which you find yourself?

Roc: That’s such a great question. I think I have, there are two
colleagues that I think of. When I hear this question and one who I’m
collaborating with actively, and his name is Dr. Nick Dickerson, and he’s
actually in Europe. He’s in the U.K. I’ll connect you two.

Gian: Yes, yes, please.

 Roc: yeah, I sure will. And then there’s Dr.
Chen Chin, at UConn. And I think I mentioned him to you Yeah. A couple weeks
back. Yeah, but specific to Dr. Dickerson, he has written about Christina Sharpe
or used Christina Sharpe in his work, more recently and over the, I would say
the last two to three years, him and I have had just plenty of discussions
about, How we situate our work in these question marks that we have that you
know, what’s your disciplinary home is what we ask ourselves or people ask us
that. And so, we are reflecting on that in like, actually in, you know, really,
and in my dissertation interrogating what does home mean, you know, home in
quotes, and the complexities of home. So, I would say that there are a few
people who are doing work that I feel very much in alignment with, and that I
think is very important for the field of sport management and these offsets of,
I would say, sports studies, just collectively, and critical sports studies. So,
I think, I mean, I think it’s received well from, you know, certain people and
I don’t know what, I can’t imagine that anyone would be like, no, don’t do
that. You know, but perhaps they will. I’m still gonna do it. But the point is
that, if we’re really trying to think deeply, as you outlined earlier about
making these connections on an individual collective community level, globally,
then we need to theorize differently.We need to think differently. We need to
do, use different methods and, and our voices, oral histories, if you will. I
think for me at least, is  an area that I
really like to focus in on and how can I, be and do better in, in, in asking
important questions. And how can those, how can the answers, how can the, I
would say, how can these stories, what do these stories compel us to do,
essentially? So, these, there are several people in the field. That inspire me
and encourage me, and I think encourage this work, but there is this kind of
feeling of wanting to be somewhere else. Do you know what I mean? Like in this
discipline that, you know, people just think is business driven. I mean because
look what we can see in the world around sport. But there is very important
critical work happening, and I don’t know. I’m hopeful that it will continue
happening, but I would say that it’s, it’s uneven. There is certain work that’s
privileged over other work and the sport industry as an industry, certainly
perpetuates, what’s in the hierarchy, what’s in that, what’s in the hierarchy,
what’s above, and what’s below.

Gian: Definitely I’m, uh, it’s so, I’m so living this experience right
now in a visceral way because I literally, um, a week, like a week ago,
resubmitted a, scoping review of essentially an analysis of like how, sports
studies or sports science and kinesiology journals are implementing critical
approaches from a critical communication perspective.And my colleague and I
shout out Kyle, we are, we had this conversation today about like, what if
these people aren’t willing to hear what we want to say? And so, I think. This
hierarchy and who is privileged and who counts, and all of these things are
integral questions into what, you know, constitutes the field and how we can
sort of relate to one another. So, this is, this is for me also very, very,
relevant also on a personal level.

Roc: Totally, you know, I mean, the politics of research, right? And I’ll
say the research is one part, but regardless for me of the research, I’m still
gonna do the work. If it’s not published in a journal, the work is still
happening in the community. And it’s actually been happening before I started
this PhD program. After, you know, it, it, it has been there and it’s like,
yeah. Just something I always ask myself and it’s like, you know, what am I
doing? You know what I mean? What am I doing to shift some things? And that,
and for me, that’s usually on a local level. I don’t know if me publishing an
article is shifting things maybe, maybe in a hundred years, but me doing the
work in the community daily showing up is definitely shifting things. And those
people who are cultural workers and organizers and movement workers, they are
shifting things every day. So, I just, you know, which side do I want to be on?
I’m clear on that. on that part.

Gian: Yeah, that’s real. I mean, thank you for that, the call in right
there because I also, you know, I am so in this neoliberal like publisher or perish
type, you know, mentality that I also forget, like obviously there are much
more important things than having a line on your CV.So that, I mean, that’s
real. No, that’s dope. Okay. So, but to, to kind of, you know, go into,
speaking of, speaking of research, right? So, when I say the word critical, like
what, what does that, if, if you can kind of crystallize what comes up for you
When I say it in a broad sense, if I say critical, are you like, oh, makes
sense? Or how do you, how do you relate to that word?

Roc: I think about teaching a lot when I hear that word. Cause I love to
teach, and I also think a lot about folks who have, Who I’ve gotten to think
with, like bell Hooks and Palo Fre, and those are folks that have really informed
the way that I teach. And I would say the way that I research or the ways that
I research, so critical. For me has to do with dialogue. It has to do with thinking
out loud, thinking in groups, having time to digest something by myself, but
then also being in a setting, literally a circle where we’re, you know, talking
about this quote or what does this mean? Or I, this is so unfamiliar to me, or you
know, I’m really challenged by this. Do you know what I mean? Like I and I,
that to me is the beautiful part about it. To read something or to hear a story
and say this goes against everything that I believe or was raised to believe. So,
it’s, you know, the other day my friend and I were talking, and we said, we, we
asked ourselves how did we turn out the way we’ve turned out, like in terms of
the way that we think, in terms of the way that we move in the world. And this
conversation had to do specifically with trans athletes and trans people and
just some of the things that we’re seeing. People that we grew up with post on
social media and and such. But this question of like, I don’t really know if
it’s a question, but for me it’s like, if I, I’m thinking about body autonomy
and the ways that people name their bodies, and who am I or who is anyone to
say, you can’t call your body this, or this body part can’t be named this, it
must be named this. Or, you know, the debates of what is a woman and what is a
man, and it’s like, there are so many iterations at the answers to those
questions. So, to me, to be uncritical would, would be this rigid box or
whatever shape people want to just, plug people into. But to be critical for me
would be to ask questions. And just because to me, you don’t have to understand
something to treat someone with dignity or respect. It’s not to me about an
understanding or misunderstanding. More or less, more, more like, you know,
ignorance or willful ignorance. But to me, to be critical is like, really
thinking about my positionality. Like how did I get here? What are the
histories that are tied to Every cell and bone and tissue that has me here, you
know, in Tallahassee, Florida, traditional territory of the Seminoles and
Appalachee and Muskogee Creek people. What has, what got me here and if I trace
back history as much as I can and, you know, there will be some information
there.And the question for me then is, what am I gonna do with that
information? Am I gonna deny it? or am I going to ask more questions about it,
be enraged about it, you know, be sad and, just have my whole worldview shaken
by it. So, I feel like that was a long answer, but I, it’s almost like I. Being
uncritical, I can give plenty examples of being uncritical to kind of leverage
the importance of what it means to be critical and interrogate ourselves, and
our projections onto other people.

Gian: Yeah. Yeah. No, I completely agree. And, and I think also you
raised this really interesting point, and I’d love to hear your thoughts on
expanding it a little bit more, but this idea of the fact that it’s all
related, and so when we talk about histories and legacies, and you know, you
highlight these. For example, emotional or effective, dimensions of tracing the
history, right? Are you going to be mad about the fact that, you know, our
ancestors were treated in x, y, z ways? Are you going to be sad about it? Are
you going, what are you going to do with it? And it’s a very much embodied reaction.
Right? It’s not cerebral. It’s, or it’s, it’s partially cerebral, but it’s also
felt deeply and emotive and so I, I think, you know, when we talk about
criticality, this is part of the reason why I have this podcast is it’s also,
it’s critical thinking. For sure. We need critical thinking. We need critical
thinkers in the world and in you know, politics and social situations, but we
also need to be critical as in, as in being a, being in, in a critical sense.
And so, I think, you know, when you, when you bring up these points, it’s also,
I’m also reminded of that. So how do you, how do you relate to some of these
things? Like, I just kind of also wanted to hear you talk more.

Roc: Yeah. I wanna hear you talk more. I say we’re always in a form of
embodiment. We are always embodying something. If we are in the Doak stadium, there’s a
football arena in this city, and that stadium is filled up every football
season. I’ve never experienced that. It never will, but it’s filled every
season. The people in that stadium are embodying something when they are in
that stadium. And they’re participating in, you know, what I believe is to be a
racist tomahawk chop that is an embodiment of something. And so, I think when
we think about embodiment, if we can understand it as always being in a form of
it, whether that is, whether that form is in alignment with who we say we are
or whether that form is in alignment with who we want to be, because. And I can
think of personal examples where, you know, I might be frustrated about
something and asking myself, well, why does this bother me so much? Or if I,
you know, if you’re in a scenario where you’re acting out in some way and it’s
like, that’s a form of an embodiment. So, it’s, we’re always in this, in a
state of embodiment and the visceral Reaction,  you’ve mentioned like visceral reactions to
things. When I think of the depths of violence, structural and medical violence
that Black people have experienced, that intersects people and trans people and
non-binary people or gender queer people have experienced that Black women cis
women have experienced that black trans women have experienced. I think of it
on a visceral level. There is, it comes down to the body always, you know, Ta-Nehisi
Coates has a quote, and I’m not going to get it exactly correct, but he names
like all the disciplines, history, sociology, anthropology, and then at the end
of it, it’s just like all of those things are words and disciplines, and some
people understand them, but at the end of the day, it comes down to the body. And
it is true for us. So, it’s, it’s true for us and it’s true for me. When I
think about embodiment in the forms of the way that I want to be and the things
that I want to put out into the world, it’s a constant kind of revisiting. And
I guess something that I also wanna say, as you can see back here, this is an
altar of my grandma, grandma, Helen, and my mom, my mother’s mom. And when I
think about the work that we do in the wake, whether we acknowledge it as wake
work or not, I am increasingly understanding that, you know, I’m not here
alone. You know what I mean? But my ancestors are with me, and I call on the
ones that want to be in my life. That support my life, that uplift my life, to
be present. So, this, the work that I do in the wake is inextricably connected
to, my ancestors. And so, I have some altars in my house to acknowledge that
and recognize them.

Gian: Hmm. Yeah.

Roc: Which for me is also a form of embodiment or an extension of it at
least.

Gian: Yeah, I mean, I get that right? Like I’m struck by, you know, when
I hear people talk about their bodies and when I hear people talk about the
relationships their bodies have to the current moment and the past moments, and
possibly the future as well. I’m always struck by the fact that it is, as you
say, it’s inextricably connected. And this is the case for a lot of people. And
yet mainstream discourses want to dissociate those two things. They want to,
they wanna say, okay, so you are an individual body, you are a producer, you
are an economic unit, and you don’t have a connection to anybody else. And this
is very convenient for specific powers, right? Whatever structure might have an
interest in your body as like, you know, as I said, economic unit, right? And so,
I’m wanting to think about ways we can you know, highlight these connections,
right? As we said before, it’s all related. And
you know, if we can, if we can talk about our ancestors, if we can talk about
our, the, you know, I don’t have plan on having children, but the people who
are going to come afterwards, in that kind of sense. So,  I guess really the question is, it becomes,
is how do you. Think of your body in a more, in a broader sense, right? How
does one, not even just you, but how do we all think of our bodies in a broader
sense? What do you, what do you think about this?

Roc: Yeah. I don’t know why. I mean, maybe I do know why, but the first
thing I’m thinking of with hearing this question is Covid-19 and living in the
wake of and con continuousness of a global pandemic because it’s still
continuing, it’s not over, and I know what that means for me and my body. And I
also know what it means for my politics around how I would interact with other
bodies in public spaces. And for me, that means masking. And because I feel
that every body, literally, every body is vulnerable. I, you know, I
understand, um, the different levels of variability for people’s bodies,
including my own, and I have several people with chronic, disabilities in my
life. And I still see our bodies as inextricably linked. And the potential of
like sharing of deadly virus with someone that I’m related to, or a complete
stranger just feels really icky for me. So, I think about and, and actually
regardless of someone’s politics, do you know what I mean? Like, so for me it
comes down to humanity and it comes down to dignity. But I’m thinking about
this word of connection and trying to connect all of these things, which is a
big feat, but I’ll say, kind of these systems are structured, so colonialism
and patriarchy, or we could just hone in on patriarchy and the ways that I think
it trickles down into, popular culture or in our daily lives. There are several
things in popular culture that have been made public in the last couple of
weeks with celebrities and the way that patriarchy. And this kind of control
over women’s bodies, over trans people’s bodies, shows up in so many different
ways. You know, what women can do, what cis women can do, what trans women can
do or can’t do. And at the end of the day, all of these systems and structures
have been more exclusionary than not. So, it would be for me, so, denying that
I think is extremely dangerous, but that’s a good starting point to say, hey,
all of these, all of these systems and institutions have been committed to
exclusion. So, if, if we’re in like an affinity group of Black folks, I’m gonna
argue that the majority, if not all of black folks would agree with that. Maybe
not if Clarence Thomas is in the group, but you get what I mean. The majority
of Black folks might say yes. The systems have been in, you know, committed to
exclusion. Then when we bring in trans people, what happens? What changes?
Because the truth would remain, that truth would remain for trans people
historically. And then if we bring in disabled people, do you know what I mean?
So, it’s like, I think, and specifically in sport, I think the veil continues
to be, or the curtain continues to roll back because it’s like, wait a minute,
we’re situating this group of people as a threat. That, but it’s not just
people. It’s bodies, literal bodies are now a threat and it’s like, hmm, where
did that narrative exist before?  Because
it’s this, as you named, kind of like a neoliberal higher education. So, let’s
think of neoliberal sport and let’s think of neoliberal histories and just, you
know, the list can go on neoliberal record in archives. Like, you know, we can
just literally substitute out groups into exclusion and excluded, and I think, I
think I’m veering off of the question a little bit, but I think my point is
that, people, people I think have very quickly, showed their politics in terms
of their belief system and if they can reach for power, if they can then be in
this hierarchical position. They’re gonna do it, and that to me, I think in the
last three years or the last four, has been very telling about how, the script
gets flipped really quickly, in terms of, oh yeah, I’ve experienced a systemic
oppression and so has my family. And then it’s like, what are you doing right
now to a group of people that, are different from you?

Gian: Yeah,  I mean this idea of
critical that you bring up is, is asking questions and thinking about the
implications of those questions for the structure. I think that’s a, that is a
completely legitimate point of view to think, okay, so what is the situation
now? How have we gotten here and what are the questions that I can ask to sort
of shift these narratives that you suggest. But in relation also to, to covid
19, and also you, you ta, you touched on this a little bit, this notion of the
daily and the, the, you know, the quotidian, the ongoing, the continuous
whatever. Where do you, or how do you situate your body in the everyday life?
Like, how do you use your body and what aspects of it do you find important for
your work, for example?

Roc: What a question. Hmm. I use my body for everything, but I’ll say even
I use it for rest more now. I feel even during the dissertation process,  I try to center that rest too. because, and
I’ll be honest, I’m not an all-nighter person. Like I, that’s just not, I
cannot operate in that way. And I wasn’t even when I was in an undergrad,
that’s not how I operate. So, this kind of, we touched on it earlier, but this

like productivity or whatever productivity means for some people, but I know

what it means for systems. I’m just not gonna do an all-nighter. Like I wake up

at 6:00 AM but I’m not doing an all-nighter, you know? So, I think checking in

with myself, I. about the ways that I use my body, about what feels good in my

body. You know, we can discuss working out and, all various forms of body work.
I’m not someone that’s really gonna do something fast, especially when it’s
lifting weight. I’m gonna take my time and do it. So, and I think, I mean,
that’s a part of embodiment, touching base with yourself on how things feel. Does
this feel good to me? and if it doesn’t, then I’m not gonna do it. You know,
I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna continue participating in it, but I think another answer
that I’ll say in connection to this, this question in the last several years, I
also have felt very closed off to people. So, the way that I see my body as a
shield for myself to not be. As in public as I was before, and not to say that
I’m not somebody who I’m a homebody, but I’m not. I just, I often see myself as
a, if you’re thinking about a turtle and a turtle shell and you go into that
shell to protect yourself and you come out when it feels safe, I will say more
than not, like teaching, teaching at the university. I have felt kind of
constricted actually. So working on that and reworking that, dropping in and
breathing, you know what I mean? Full breaths. So, thinking about my body and
some of the ways that, it’s been harmed over these, these years is also a
reality for me.

Gian: Yeah, I mean, yeah, we can talk about vulnerability and harm as,
you know, integral in these mechanisms, these disciplinary mechanisms, right?
Like how they, how, you know, for example, structures will keep us in a specific
position, because we’re supposed to be productive, we’re supposed to want to do
these all-nighters. We’re supposed to, you know, do all these things, and it’s
like, for whom? And what does it serve? These are, I, I think these are also
legitimate questions. So, what, um, so when we talk about, you know, the body
and its capacity for rest and also its capacity to lift weights and capacity to
be vulnerable and to shield oneself, what aspects do you think are important? Like
what’s physical characteristics are important for your, for your practice, for
example?

Roc: I, that’s, yeah. For my practice I like, I like ease. I like
starting my day with ease. And for instance, this is not, I mean in, in terms
of working out or, but I have tea every morning. It’s just something that I do
and throughout the day, you know, I check in on my grandma. Like these are
things that I, that are ritual practice to my day. And in terms of lifting or
that type of body work? Well, let me rewind a little bit. There’s a trans, massage
therapist in town who, I’m thankful to be connected to him because that’s also
part of my regimen, gym working out the kinks. And just things that have built
up in my body and working out finding community. With the local, uh, local gym
in town, it’s a trauma informed gym. Um, it’s a lot of different, I would say
each day is a different challenge. Each workout is a different challenge. And
again, checking in with my body, like what is bench press gonna feel like for
me today? Or what’s back squat gonna feel like for me today? So, I like weight.
I like strength training. I really enjoy it. It feels good for me. It feels, I
love building strength and endurance and I think. Just to give an example, over
the course of the last three years, the way that I do that has changed because
I was in a different place than I was, you know, four years ago than I am right
now. Because the pandemic changed a lot for me, as it did for many of us. So, I
think being easeful with my body, being thankful for my body, you know, waking
up in the morning, completing a workout or completing one movement, or also
saying, I’m, you know, I’m not gonna do one more rep. I’m good where I’m at. But

being that, you know, thanking my body for, for getting me to that point. It’s

just trying to be in tune because like you shared earlier, there’s so much in
the world that wants us to be disconnected from our body. And, you know, we are
forced to interact with these institutions and, I think the things that we can
do that bring us joy, that bring us connection that we can just drop in with
ourselves and other people like our true kin. That’s what I want more of.
That’s what I welcome into my life.

Gian: That’s a, that’s a, I mean that’s a, I think the goal, right? The
goal is connection. The goal is community. So, it really, I mean, prefaces this
next question really well, because you talk about connection with yourself,
which is. An integral part of, you know, a holistic practice, but then also how
do you, connect with others and what aspects of other people’s bodies are
important, for example, in your field or in your practice as well.

Roc: You know, when we were doing weekly workouts with rooted resistance,
you know, I would set up the workout and, you know, there would be some people
who come and they just would lay on the grass and they’d be like, Roc, not
today. And I’m like, that’s fine. Lay on the grass. Touch the earth. Be with
the earth. So, when I think about, I’ll say this, when we used to work out in
this, this intimate space in Tallahassee and you know,  the different exercises would be in a circle.
Sometimes it was just body weights. Sometimes I would bring equipment, but just
that alone was connecting with other people’s bodies and, um, in a consensual
way, in an accountable way. And, you know, and it’s like just to see people
start the first time and then come back. A year later, like well, consistently
for a year, and be able to drop into themselves and say, I was used to be so
concerned about my body in this space, or in other fitness spaces. And then I
came here, and I focused on, well, my body feels strong now. It’s not even
about the aesthetic of my body. I am strong and I feel that I made friends or
I, you know, I made people, I made connections with people, um, that are really
reliable and trustworthy. And it’s just like, if I’m honest with you, I would
go and set the workout up. We would work out, talk, have fun, and then
sometimes sit in a circle for hours after the workout. Just talking to the
point where I used to be like, yo, I have to go, I have to write a paper, you
know, but People would still be there. And the point for me is I don’t need to
be there for that to happen. That’s the point of it. It’s like it is now
happening. And so how, you know, how can we continue that? So yeah, like I
shared that the pandemic changed a lot because we don’t have weekly workouts
anymore. And so many people, majority of the people who were a part of that
community all moved away. So. You know, that’s leading me to rethink some
things. And also, with myself relocating soon, um, how I can revamp it, and do
it in a safe way. Because for me, just politically and ethically, I wasn’t
comfortable with bringing people together, even outside given the, the
situation with Covid-19 that just wasn’t worth it to me. So, there’s other ways
to stay connected, but I’ll say, the relationships and relating to other people
takes time. It takes commitment and it takes showing up. And a part of that, that’s
the most beautiful part of, I think the last five years of living in this
particular place is those relationships, and some of them that are continuous.

Gian: Nice. Nice. So, we are talking a little bit about, Community and
establishing sort of connection with others. And I really wanna hear kind of
your thoughts on the field, right? Because you’re, this is a practice for you
in terms of, personal training or move movement work with others. But then also
what developments do you see in any of the various fields that you find
yourself in, and what would you like to see?

Roc: What do I see and what would I like to see?

Gian: Yeah.

 Roc: It’s interesting because, you know, even
with the book, you know, the book is about fitness with the fitness industrial
complex, and I come from more of a sport lens. But again, they’re, they’re
connected. They’re, they come from the same, um, cloth, if you will. So, what I
see happening, what we spoke about a little bit earlier, there are people
everywhere globally, that are doing this work. And I think. In some ways,
coaches, fitness trainers, fitness specialists or you know, movement
specialists, body workers are thinking about ways to heal their own bodies and
other people’s bodies. And, and I’m tapped into just like a fragment of that. There’s
so much more for me to learn about the things that people are doing, and the
work, the work of doing the work. So, I will say that I know that. There’s this
wide range of, I would say, liberatory body work that’s, that exists that
people are participating in.And I see it even at the grassroots level in sport.
You know, I see it with Justice Roe Williams in Boston and what he’s doing. So,
these things are happening and something that I will say, That I, that I think
should be happening more or can happen more in the future. I. As institutions
so they can higher institutions with funding and faculty with funding to fund
these projects, to help sustain them. And there are, because there are people
in the grassroots level who are doing this work, and they’re working five jobs,
but they’re still doing this work because it’s important. It’s a part of their
life, their, their literal livelihood, and their being. So how can these funds
be redistributed to connect to the community and, and trust that the people on
the ground know where that money needs to be. So that’s something that I could,
that I want, I, you know, want more of. I know it exists and it’s happening,
but specific to kind of this field or the fields that I’m touching, I’m like,
how can we write this grant or apply for this funding that that would literally
sustain, would, would change the game in sustaining this program and this
person, this one person who is essentially doing more work than some of these
nonprofits are doing, without the harm, you know? So, I, I think that that’s a
possibility. You know what I mean?

Gian: Yeah, I can, I cannot agree more. I think when we think about
structural inequalities and institutions with money and then folks with no
money and not folks not getting paid for their time, energy, and labor. I mean,
we wanna talk about that. We could talk about that for a long time. Right. So
what, what I mean, and I really, I’m really glad that you bring it up because
what we need to see, and I’m, I’m trying to work in this politic of, you know,
paying people for their time, putting money out there, like really making sure
that it’s not you know, lip service. It’s not saying, oh, these perspectives
are really important, okay, but pay me. Right? That’s what, that’s like, the
perspective is important, then gimme the job. You know? And so that’s what I, I
think, really needs to take place. And I’m really glad that you, that you also
wanna see that in, in various fields, right? Not just sport, but also, um, the
private sector, also the public sector, nonprofits, higher ed. Like, it just,
it definitely needs to be happening. And as you say, it is happening in small facets,
but it definitely needs to be a broader movement. And I guess in my regard, I
would say that those of us with power, because I do come from at least a
somewhat privileged position, it, you know, we need to be calling, attention to
this and doing more and asking those questions. So yeah, that’s, I really, like
I said, really appreciate you bringing that up. Cool. So,  I really just have like a couple of questions
and they’re kind of related. so that it’s really just you have, um, maybe a
message that you would like to put out as kind of a wrap up, you know, Sum up
kind of situation. And do you have anything that you would like to direct
towards me? Any, any questions, critique, comment, concern, existential angst anything
like that? Those two things, uh, can be interwoven. You could leave one out,
you know, whatever as you prefer.

Roc: Perfect. Okay. So, the first question, I think. Well, I’ll say that
this to me is a starting point, right? There are, I just wanna big up all the
authors in this book, because, well, a starting point I’ll say in a collection
of stories and an anthology of people’s experiences and connection to fitness,
and fitness, you know, and I think that, each of their stories is important and
I hope that it can. Help someone else think differently or at least ask
themselves questions about, oh, this is, you know, I never, I never thought of
fitness in this way, or maybe someone who does think of fitness in these inter
interrogative ways and feels compelled to write their own story and share their
own story, whether that’s with, you know, people who are close to them or on a
blog or whatever the case may be. Because I think something else that does
happen, Is we internalize these things, you know, we internalize harm. We
internalize, sometimes people internalize superiority and what we’re talking
about, bodies and the hierarchy of them. how this hierarchy was designed. It
was created,  to me it’s not real, but
the consequences of it are deathly real, they’re fatal. So, I just want to
shout out all the authors who vulnerably share their stories, and I hope that
people who are reading it are taking something from it. I know that. Yeah, so
I’ll leave it, I’ll leave it at that.

Gian: And I just, I just wanna say, so deconstructing the fitness
industrial complex, how to resist, disrupt, and reclaim what it means to be fit
in American culture. I read it, 10 out of 10 would recommend. You’ll also find
a link. Underneath this, video for when it’s hosted on my website, but if you have
any sort of tangential connection to fitness or anything, it is, it, it should
be required reading. Let me just say that.

Roc: Thank you so much.

Gian: No problem.

Roc: No, I agree. I completely agree. And not just because I’m a part of
it, but I’ll say. But this project, from start to finish was two years cuz you
know, you have to write a proposal and then as one of the co-editors work with
all the authors, and it’s a project that I’m really proud of, that we came
together and did this and out of everyone in the project. Justice and I are the
on, well, I, Justice is the only person that I have ever met, had ever met in
person before the book release in May. So, you know, that speaks to just
relationship building and every iteration and various iterations over the
course of time. And then if no, I’m just thinking about one more thing. One
more thing that I might add, and it has to do with critical sports studies, and
you know how people put the emoji of shaking hands, critical sports studies and
Black studies. I feel like I’m just at the very beginning of wherever this will
go and with whatever colleagues and, you know, community friends that I work on
this with. But I am determined to study the work, and read deeply and reflect
deeply on how to theorize in critical sports studies in a way that pairs with
black studies, and like I said, there are people who have come before me and,
and they’re doing it and have done it. And I hope to add my own perspective,
that’s wrapped around with queerness as well. So that, and so those are the two
things that I would add. And I do have a question for you, because I’m so
curious about even your criticality in your field, and I know you mentioned
your colleague, when you shared the project. How, what’s y’all’s experience in
your field, around kind of critical studies and communication and media
studies? Is that correct?

Gian: So, I was, recently at the international Communication Association
Conference. I’m a communication scholar and, the, uh, question really about
like what constitutes criticality and why, you know, we’re not really
interested in the, or interested in these structural questions is really that
it’s just that health comm is. Not ready to face critical sort of perspectives.
And I found that really telling it and it, it, it, it even showed in the way
that the program was structured, right? All of the more sort of critically
oriented panels were at the end of the conference when people are already
leaving. Right? And so, I felt like that was really, really telling. so yeah, I
think when it comes to health comm and critical critical studies, there’s a
long way to go and I’m trying to, you know, um, bridge those communities or
bridge those knowledge, um, fields. But it’s, I mean, of, of course, right,
it’s in this, in this, it’s set in this neoliberal capitalist structure. But,
you know, we try to navigate as scholars and this publish or perish mentality.
So I would think that. Yeah, the, the work needs to be done. And I’m, I’m, I’m
always curious and, and really grateful to learn from people who are actually
doing, you know, tangible, pragmatic work, which I  wish I could do more of. And yeah, that’s
kind of one of the reasons why I wanted to set up this podcast and really, you
know, access some of these, some of these, yeah. Like we talked about the waves
of the wake. I really wanna surf on them in a little bit. Yeah. To use a
metaphor, right. Uh, so yeah, totally. That’s kind of where I’m at right now.

Roc: Cool. No, I appreciate you sharing that. And I definitely see
overlaps, and your observation about, you know, where’s the more critical
sessions were towards the end, I think is a big, a big one. Or it’s, it was a
big decision to do that, but that, you know, you noticed it, so I’m curious if
other people did too.

Gian: Yeah, they did. We, I mean, when you, when you become part of this,
I think especially with, with. Scholars in a larger field, you find, you know
your allies,

Roc: Your people!

Gian: You find your people. Yeah. You find
your people. Exactly. And we talk about it. We, no, just know we talk. It does
not go unnoticed. so, but yeah. Yeah. That’s, All right, Roc. Well, I’ve had a
great time. I’m really enthusiastic about this recording and I really hope
that, um, you know, people engage with it. Is there any last thoughts or
anything that you would like to contribute before we wrap up?

Roc: No, I just wanna say thank you for having me on. I, yeah. I believe
in this project and the work that you’re doing. And I look forward to being
connected from this point on.

Gian: Yeah, definitely. I thank you for agreeing to be interviewed. It
was really, it was, it was my pleasure. Um, so with that being said,  I’m just gonna, I’m gonna wrap up, but I’m
gonna speak directly now to the, to the listeners and viewers. If you, um, felt
spoken to or wanted to disagree or wanted to interact with any of the things
that we just said, please comment on the transcript that’s below this recording
and, uh, engage, you know, spread, share, like, comment, subscribe, all of
that. And of course, you can interact with, any of the information that we
provided on Roc. So obviously the social media, the book, buy the book, read
the book.  And with that, I’d just like
to say, uh, you know, bye everybody and stay critical.