Ep. 4 – Embracing Intersectional Experiences w/ Makisig Akin

@makisigakin on Instagram 
Professional website: Makisig Akin (Website)

Upcoming engagements:
beingtouch.org/it/ – August 15-20th, 2023
Tanznachtberlin.de/tanznachtberlin/ – September 8-9, 2023

Gian: Hey everyone. I’m Gian Hernandez. I’m a postdoc at the University
of Amsterdam, working on critical health and fitness, and this is the Critical
Beings Podcast. This episode’s guest is someone I’ve known for a while and have
recently reconnected with. Makisig is a Filipino queer trans choreographer and
contemporary dancer. Who graduated with their Master of Fine Art in dance
choreography in the program, world Arts and Cultures Dance at University of
California Los Angeles in the United States. Their work is about strengthening
the recognition of intersectional identities, reconnecting with their ancestry
and decentralizing western ideologies in dance making. I’m really excited to
have him here. So, let’s join me and welcoming Makisig. Thanks for being here.

Makisig: Thanks for having me.

Gian:  Is there anything else you’d
like to add to your, to your really interesting bio? I’m super excited to talk
about all these, these fun things.

Makisig: Yeah. Currently, so after I graduated from, UCLA, I moved to Berlin,
Germany. So currently I’m based there and making my work here and yeah.

Gian: Nice, nice. Yeah. Important to situate it also in, in the local
context. So. I just wanna dive right in. So, can you tell me, you know, a
little bit about yourself, how you got to your work? What are you doing? What
do you feel most passionate about? Yeah, all that stuff.

Makisig: Yeah. So, I’m gonna start with like how I even started with
becoming, or like my, in my becoming of a dancer, choreographer. Actually
started, when I went to grad to, college, I was actually getting myself to UC San
Diego as a chemistry major. But in, but in the, um, in discovering of that program and
that path into becoming, uh, Doctor, actually, this is what, this was my goal. I
realized like I needed to be doing some moving and dancing, and I went into the
program there and was just like doing it from on the side and then, really
noticing how much my interest in how the body works and like how these dance
classes have impacted my sense of self and understanding of self and yeah,
predominantly like made me feel more alive basically as I was like struggling
into doing midterms and finals and doing biochemistry and organic chemistry and
like all of these like intense, very, very competitive classes. And so later
on, after, a few years of like two years of doing classes in dance, I’ve. Like
majored in it, I’ve like all of a sudden decided I’m double majoring in both
chemistry and, and dance. And so, I ended up actually changing from, um,
chemistry to cognitive sciences because then it started to focus more on the
body and the brain. And this became like really, like, this is how I found
myself. Like basically being exposed to dance made me learn closer and closer
to what, like interests me and what like, keeps me alive. So afterwards then I
decided to go ahead and do my Masters in dance and choreography. Because it was
like, kind of like a crucial time in my life where, you know, being in the US
this is of course in the US and being an, becoming a, an artist and deciding to
be an artist is almost like an impossible task. Like it’s, it’s impossible to
just be an artist. And so, what I wanted to do was to offer myself the most
possible way to success there. As an artist and, uh, I needed time. So doing my
master’s program was actually what deepened and made it clear a bit more what
it is about dance that was important to me. I needed to go into that. And then
this is where, everything started. So, it, it turns out to be that basically,
um, I became really curious about my identity and like what is happening for me
in dances, my experience of my body as I exist in this field where, many other
bodies are moving and exploring themselves and being seen through movement. And
that slowly, slowly, kind of revealed to me a bit more of my identity as being
a Queer person and then being belonging in that. Type of people who have a
different experience than most folks that I was dancing with, for example. And
then, yeah, it became really cur like curious to me to like to understand that
I am actually becoming more and more like, not like I’ve been a big sense like
how movie stars are, but I was becoming a public figure and knowing that like
what people are seeing.  Me doing on
stage is really important and how they’re actually also understanding who they
are as people. And so, I kind of took on that responsibility and yeah, really
considered that into what I am actually making today in my choreographic works.

Gian: Wow. There’s, okay, so I took, I’m, I was taking some notes. There’s
so many things that I wanna wanna get into, but I also res your story resonates
a little bit with me as well because, when I was doing my undergraduate, I had
a, was I had a degree in music. I was focusing on solely classical trumpet
performance. And then I was taking communication courses and I realized that
actually communication was kind of more what I was into. And so, I kind of had
like a similar realization where I’m like, actually, I. This is important to me,
and I care about this. And, and that brings me to the question that came up to
me. As you were speaking, you said you’d realize what is important to you about
dance, and I want to, I want to ask the question, what is important to you
about dance? You talked about it a little bit, but can you put a, you know,
like a finer point on it or maybe expand a little bit more?

Makisig: Yeah, I kind of, what, what became important for me in dance is
first my initial experience with it, like what is it doing to my body? How am I
experiencing myself and what happens before I’m dancing and what’s happening
after I’m dancing? Right. And what’s happening during it? So, there’s two,
there’s all of these different phase phases of my experience of, of myself and
my body that, I had to really, it wasn’t like I was. Kind of studying like
scientists, but I was just noticing it. And what I was noticing was that it was
making me feel closer to who I am. Like, you know, learning basically about
the, what my body, my body can do in this moment, what my desires are for it to
be able to do, and what is my current experience of it? Like what, where is it
at, at this moment?  And that’s more
talking about physically, but also you could, I was also experiencing it
emotionally, like what’s my emotional relationship with my body? And through
that, it like, I kind of like became really interested also and aware of my
desires about how I want it to be perceived. And in dance, it’s a lot, you
know, it has a long history of basically people having intense actual, um, body
image of like what dance like force in the western perspective. And this is
another reason why my way of working is trying to go against that. Because
actually my experience of it is super not tainted. Well, it is in some ways
because I was studying dance in this, in in the US which is a western society and
follows that western norm normativity. But it was happening much later in my
life actually, my, my, connection with my body and my, my connection with
movement has happened since I was younger, but it has nothing to do with dance,
right? So, I was just, I was just a very physical child. I was climbing trees a
lot, and now I realize also that’s my first physical practice. That’s how I
learned how to move and to organize my body and to find balance is climbing as
a child. And so anyway, be being, not so much, you know, like buying into that
need to be a physical, like in a physical certain category of body type, you
know, like, it became to me that actually dance is functioning differently. It
was making me feel more connected to my current body. Like, oh, this can, I can
do this, and this can happen too, and I have an ability to see something and
organize my body to do that same thing, but without having a kind of insecurity
about not being able to dance earlier in my life, you know? So, I kind of
wanted to spread that in, in, in a sense like, because I know, especially being
an artist in the Western world. It’s dominated by that kind of value system.
And I know that my value system in dance is just a bit different. Like there’s
a lot more accepting because I, that like dance helped me accept myself
basically. And so, I wanted to continue into that realm of like, what, what
other intersectional identities do I carry in within my body? And how did dance
help me connect to that and learn to love that and accept that and empower it,
and how can maybe the works that come from myself also promote that kind of
perspective and that kind of thinking for the viewers and for the audiences
that’s watching my work.

Gian: Wow. That’s, that’s super, that’s super interesting. And like I,
what I’m hearing also is, you know, this connection between like from yourself
and this inner reflection and really sort of an embodied, understanding of the
self, but then also the tension of sort of the outer world and the perceptions
of that body and you know, who we are and how we relate to one another in terms
of embodiment. So, I’m, I am very, like, I’m interested to hear your
perspective also on, you know, how you relate to others doing your kind of work
or similar work, right. Do you, for example, identify to with other
choreographers or other dancers? Do you feel isolated? Do you feel, feel
connected? Do you feel community? Like, what is your, what is your relationship
to the, to the quote unquote dance world or the dance landscape?

Makisig: Yeah, so I’m just gonna talk about my, my, because I, it’s such a
big world, right? And, I mean, it’s not so big, but it is big enough that I’m
not in all of the different fields of dance that’s existing around Europe. But
my experience in Berlin as like a young new artist living here, I lived, I
moved here like five years ago, but more, stably like here, three years ago.
And so, when I started, I, no one knew me, so I was actually entering projects
as a dancer. And during that time, I did feel, uh, I somewhat, it was hard to
find the people that connected to dance in the way that I did, and in a lot of
ways, I ended up in works of White folks, White choreographers, which has, I don’t
have a problem with, you know, what desires they have and what kind of works
they make. Like I really, of course I question some of the things I’m critical
about it. But, my experience, my direct experience of it is that it, it was
functioning in a value system of needing, of seeing the dancers as. A piece to
this world that they’re creating and that you are somewhat, Either, there’s two
versions. Either your body is completely empty canvas and they put work into
that body and they, and you are, Yeah, you are just entering their world to
help them create it right and physicalize it. And then the other perspective is
that you are, a body like a dancer that has a set of skills and they’re going
to that, that’s going to show the showcase in their work. And, for me, this
felt a lot like, it was definitely a decision I’ve made to. Be dancing in these
works because of course I have to make money and I have to live and I have to
keep my visa. And in order to keep my visa, I have to show that I’m making
money in this field. So that’s, survival, I would say, but also understanding
that I, I needed to go through that experience to, to solidify actually what
are my own value systems and how it took me some time, like of course, two
years, I think I would say. Until I was like, okay, I actually needed to, I
was, I was desiring, and I was needing to create from a different perspective
of either collaborate with people who have the same value system as me or be in
the position of choreographer. And so, I’m setting up this space of like what
it is that we are having as a value system together. Yeah.

Gian: So, this is, that’s, oh, that’s super, super interesting. Um, did
you, did you notice, I, I want to talk about this distinction between the
showcase, dancers or the, the, the bodies we can even say, and then the blank
sort of tabula rasa idea. Did you notice a trend? In the kinds of
choreographers that use this dichotomy to check certain certain artists,
certain, sorry, certain choreographers, um, choose specific kinds of people. Did
you notice certain dancers gravitate towards one or the other? I’m super
curious about that dynamic.

Makisig: Yes. So it’s really crazy. So, what I’m, what I’m noticing right
now is that, of course there’s a lot, a lot of likes, agitating of traditional
way of making work. Right? And so, we’re going from like, you know, the, the
times when dancers are just moving bodies. And then on the other spectrum of
that is the dance, the dancers who are real people and have intersectional
identities and they’re bringing their identities on stage. And then so there’s
some awareness of that, right?  So, but
because we are, people are like, okay, I need to make the work that follows
that desire of people wanting to see more, humanizing more the dancers that
they’re seeing on stage, but bypassing. The kind of education that people need
to learn around why that’s actually important. And then, so what I’m, I’m
finding actually is dancers or, or choreographers, sorry, dancers can be
choreographers, but choreographers who are, who have been funded and have the
money to create, are bypassing that necessary step of understanding why it is
all of a sudden that we need to see dancers as people, and why do we have to
acknowledge their identity as a person of color, as an immigrant, as a Queer
person, as a trans body, as you know, as a Black person. Like, it’s, it’s
really for me, what ends up happening, which definitely happened to me, is that
I got casted. Like it was, I would say it was easier for me to be casted
because people are interested in being, oh, this is a brown body. I quiet, I’m
not really sure, but maybe they are trans, maybe they’re Queer, so I’m gonna
hire that person because that’s, that’s what. The field. That’s the direction
of the field is where the field is going. But then how they treat us and how
they, in the creation process, how they treat us and how they are working with
us is actually in this way. What you were saying, ex extract activation, like
it’s just like taking from, from, from them rather than empowering or understanding
what the boundaries are. You know, like maybe that person actually, you know,
doesn’t want you to exploit them. So, there’s this, I’m oftentimes finding
myself as a dancer, having this intense conversation with choreographers and
being like, it’s it. This is, I feel used. Basically, I’m feeling like you are
using me. I’ve got this job because I’m a brown person. And then when you say
that they get completely, fragile and completely defensive. And offended. Yeah.
And then you’re like, oh, and now I’m in this position of educating you and why
that is problematic. You know, and then you’re just like, put in this cycle of,
you know, and then in the end, you are not only just a dancer, you are having
to be an advocate for yourself, um, advocating for yourself in the team of White
people. And oftentimes this happens, you’re either the token or you are with a
bunch of tokenized people, like let’s say, and it’s still in the, um, minority,
right? So, then you’re also being, having to do the extra labor of educating
people that is unpaid. Yeah. But you’re, you’re required to work exactly the
same amount of, you know, Like energy in terms of like physical work. Yeah. No,
sorry, I’m getting really morbid now, but no,

Gian: No, no. This is great. This is, I mean, this is super important to
talk about and you know, if, if, if one of the messages, if anybody out there
is listening, pay people for their time, like that’s a really important principle,
I think.

Makisig: but also, not just that I can I, can I just add a little bit more? Yeah,
of course. Cause it’s nice for people to hear it and then they’re like, oh,
we’re paying them. Everybody’s paid equally. But understanding that, like when
you are hiring someone and a new who is particularly coming from an identity of
BIPOC, like a black, indigenous person of color and Queer, like whatever an identity
that’s not White, cis Person you are having to do extra work that all the other
identities are not having to do. And compensating for that first, having the
awareness that they’re doing extra labor, whether, whether they’re speaking or
not. Just being in a space that is dominated by White people, you are already
having to do extra work.

Gian: That’s real. Yep. So, pay people for their, pay, people for their
labor maybe actually is more, more an accurate, so it might be emotional labor.
It doesn’t always equal exactly as you say, it doesn’t always equal time. It
could also just be the physical, sort of embodied presence as being an extra,
you know, Thing. This is critical. This is super important. But speaking of, of
critical, I noticed that you mentioned that also the, you know, obviously the
title of this podcast. I noticed that you mentioned, there are moments when
you’re critical of the spaces that you find yourself in. And I just wanted to
ask, what does critical mean to you? When I say the word critical, what comes
up?

Makisig: Wow. So it’s really nice. Like I really. What, when I, have a
question around words, I, you know, English is not my first language, and so I
would look things up like, really, what is this word? What, what exactly does
it mean on the most elementary level and being critical for me? What I
understand is like basically being in, like looking at something like whatever,
an experience or a photo something, and so. Seeing what your direct response to
it is and then understanding that that’s one perspective, and then now seeing
it from another perspective and then looking at it how, seeing something in
multiple perspectives, um, that is outside of your own experience. Right. And
then from there, understanding it clearly enough to be able to maybe get closer
to the expansiveness of what it’s doing from other perspectives than your own.
And once you get into that perspective and then seeing, oh, there’s a difference
there is the person who’s making that, presenting this photo or this work,
aware of it. And if, if you feel that they’re not, or if you feel that you
weren’t aware of it, voicing it, giving it, giving it, body so that people can
see it. And I think this is what I think being critical of something means,
like not just, you know, looking at it from the surface level. Oh wow, it’s
beautiful. And then questioning, oh, you got to the word beautiful. What is
that? Where is that coming from? Like why is it beautiful? What is not
beautiful? You know, what else is it doing besides being beautiful? Yeah. And then the important part of being critical
is not just keeping that perspective in yourself, that finding, but also really
sharing it. For me, I used to think of critical as like something of a
negative, like, oh, someone’s being critical of my work. Especially when I was
like very sensitive and young. When you’re very young and then you make
something, it’s very vulnerable, and then you don’t know yet. You know, you
want everybody to like what it’s that you’re doing, but actually critical is
like also a show of love in a way for me, because that person is telling you
what you’re making that you might be unaware of, and then once you’re aware of
it, you can make a decision whether you want it to stay there or not, right? And
then you can, you know, affect like it be in a bit more, like, it’s weird to
say in control, but like a bit more aware of what it is that you’re putting out
there and being able to see whether you agree with that or not. And if you
agree with it, then continue it and if you disagree with it, and why did it
first end up being there and how can I change that? So, it says exactly what I
wanted to say.

Gian: Yeah, there’s a lot, I mean, there’s a lot about this idea of, I
think you were ref, you were referencing this, right? Calling folks in with
critique as opposed to calling them out. Right? So, if, you know, we, we love
someone, we can hold them to  a higher
standard and say, hey. You know, this, whatever you put out there, be it a
choreographic work or a visual artistic work or an academic work, we can say
like, hey, this has X, Y, Z implications. And that’s an idea of critique or
being critical, but yeah, I think, I mean we could talk about all of these
different etymological layers as well, but I think also it’s really important
that you bring up this idea of, you know, folks working in different,
experience levels of English and like having multiple ideas about what
constitutes critical. I’ve interviewed a couple of folks who, you know, English
isn’t their first language, and of course they have. You know, masterful
command and are beautifully expressing it like you like these ideas of like
what it means. And I just wanted to also de-center the idea that like, there’s
only one definition of words and we can, we only sort of, you know, understand
things from one perspective. Because as you you’re mentioning, like we can kind
of think about, you know, what it is we are critiquing and then what are the
sort of. You know, results or co or implications of that, right. What, what
follows from it? So, I really like, um, you know, that idea that you’re
bringing in with, with, I mean choreography, but also with like, other
politics, right? Like other things, you know, other things. Yeah. Yeah. I also,
so for me, for, because critical, when I was writing this or when I was
thinking about this podcast, I was also thinking like critical as a sense of
important, right? So, if we’re, we, we as beings, right? Uh, if we’re
practicing critique, we can also be seen or seeing ourselves as somehow
important. And I, I wanna know, do you, do you find yourself or does you know,
what does, where does that sit with you? Like, where does that resonate with
you? Are you finding yourself, you know, for example, or at least recognizing
that your voice is more, becoming more important, or is it somehow, are you, do
you still find yourself kind of like on the outskirts? Like where do you, where
do you feel, um, in relation to this idea of critique?

Makisig: That’s a very complex, I think I have a complex answer. I don’t how
we can go and do it.

Gian: No. We love complex answers.

Makisig: But what I hear from that question is like, do you find your
perspective as something that is critical or like important or urgent?

Gian:  Yeah. Yeah. How do you, how
do you find it? Right. Not just, I’m not, I’m not trying to call it into
question, I’m just saying like, you know,

Makisig: How do I find it?
Like it’s really interesting for me. I do feel what? I don’t know how to answer
the question except for when something, let’s say someone is saying something
and it’s starting to feel like, wow, I completely disagree with this. I
definitely can tell. I can see when I choose to not speak where the direction
of what happens goes, which normally it just disappears, like. Everybody in the
room just agrees with it, or when I speak about something, I feel that it
agitates this space. And then I know that it’s going to be a moment where
people pause for a moment and actually discuss what it is that I brought up. Right.
And then in some ways, when it comes like this, I know that it’s important,
right? So, then I’m like, okay. In that moment it really feels important, but
it’s just that what happens for me particularly being a background of being a
migrant most of my life and being a person of color, I have inside of my
myself, the insecurities of that of like internalized, probably racism, right? Internalized
racism of understanding that actually my voice doesn’t have. doesn’t matter, my
voice doesn’t have power. And then so there’s an internalized, silencing that’s
happening.  I would silence myself before
I speak. And then, so that means, you know, maybe it’s not in my intellectual
understanding of myself, but my emotional understanding of myself that I choose
to be silence, silencing myself because I don’t think it’s important, but the
more older I’m getting and the more closer to myself I am, and the more, I
carry less shame inside myself.  I am
finding, and I’m continuing to push myself that to say that actually it’s
important, even if it’s not, just get yourself out there. So, it’s like overcompensating
in a way. I’m like, I am just gonna say it, and then now I’m getting smarter
about it. I’ll say something and I don’t, and I say also that; It’s also
important for me to know that if it’s not important to you to talk about, it’s
okay, but I say it anyway.

Gian: Yeah. Yeah. No, I, so I, I love that idea of putting things out
there because, you know, and I, like, I, like I say, I’m not saying, you know,
I’m not trying to call into question if your voice is important, obviously it’s
super important. And, and you know, it was, it’s, it’s this idea of like, if we
don’t speak, what happens? And I’m reminded of the Langston Hughes poem with,
with the concept of a dream deferred. Like what happens when, you know, our
dreams or our desires or our hopes become swallowed? And something that I
notice as notice you doing as well is this. And it’s something we all do,
right? We talk with our bodies, we talk with our hands, we use gesture. And I,
I really think this is an excellent segue into the next question. because, you
know, when we don’t talk or when we’re anxious or when we’re tired or
something, I, we human beings, you know, tend to kind of shrink into
themselves. And it does have, you know, psychosomatic implications, right? We,
you know, people get stressed out and then get sick, because they aren’t
expressing themselves and they aren’t practicing critique, they aren’t being
critical, in an important sense and also in a, you know, criticism sense. So, I
wanted to ask you about how you use your body in these spaces. Like how does
your body function in everyday interactions, maybe in the choreography space or
maybe in, in, in everyday spaces at home. How does you, how do you use your
body in your in your practice?

Makisig: Wow. Um, for me, in, in like social spaces, especially when there
are conversations that are heated happening, I use my body as an indicator of
like, what am I experiencing? So, I’m like, it’s always giving me information.
It’s always giving me information. If I’m getting triggered, it’s giving me
information If like something feels that I need to speak. Because it’s
agitating something inside of me because I feel like maybe someone is, you
know, saying something that is untrue or, racist or, homophobic or something
like that. Like where, where it’s calling me to action, so I’m using my body.
Yeah, it’s nice. I’m using my body to dictate to indicate within myself to know
when I need to call myself into action. For sure. Nice.

Gian: Do you? So, and like, I think also I, I tap into this as well.
Sometimes I’ll like look at my, I have a Fitbit, you know, and I’ll look at
like, am I, is, there’s this body information telling me something about my
psychic sense. But I’m wondering are there. Aspects of your body that are more
or less critical in your work, Right? So maybe physical aspects or, or societal
sort of identity wide aspects. Are there aspects that are more important, more
critical or more less critical in your, in your practice?

Makisig: Yeah, I think what’s happening now, like I used to be really, um,
critical about what my body can do and cannot do. Like what, I choose to do in
terms of like physical activity, for example. Now it’s, I’m, I’m just getting,
I’m just now getting into, uh, Brazilian jiujitsu and it’s really intense and
interesting and I know that I like to be physical, but you know, one of the
things that kept me from doing in jujitsu, for example, was, That I’m like, oh,
it’s too late for me.I am 33. But, and also other things, you know, and also
other things, which is like, it’s just like touching a bunch of cis White dudes
and how often am I doing that? Like, never. And so, you know, I get critical
about it, of being like, okay, why? And then I’m, and then I find inside myself
being like, oh, actually it’s important to me.I wanna be comfortable because
in, in a way, it’s preparing myself for survival or preparing my body,  and desensitizing maybe or sensitizing both
ways, like desensitizing, meaning that like I’m not too sensitive that I cannot
react,  or I freeze when someone, crosses
my boundaries and touches my body. Especially, you know, coming from that kind
of, identity, cis, white, hetero heterosexual men and so yeah, like I, I’m kind
of like more and more, um, letting myself be in that uncomfortable space of
taking up jujitsu for that other perspective of being like, okay, actually this
is good for me. I need to know that. I want to be able to access my body and
not be in a shock mode, for example. So yeah, I can think of it like this. It
could also be sometimes, like I, I do find myself like, more and more physical
these days, which is really interesting. Like I am very moving body for sure. I
find myself. As a choreographer, because dancing is a work that I, in my free
time, I’m not dancing, I’m actually doing all the other activities. I’m, I’m
doing martial arts for example. Like, I’m, I’m actually finding comfort in
doing something that I’m not abstracting or I’m not seeing as work or like, I’m
not going, oh, what this, what’s the implications of this? Like, I go in and
out of like, I actually am doing it because I just wanna be physical. I’m doing
this because, you know, which is separate from, I’m doing this because I am
creating something that will say something and is important for others to
perceive in this way. And really, you know, being in a working mode. So, it’s
clear to me when I’m doing one or the other and it, it’s important to
differentiate so I don’t, so it, yeah, it, it is clear when I’m working and not
working.

Gian: Nice. That’s, uh, yeah, that’s super important. I think we often
forget, especially now in, in the current moment of timespace compression, and
everybody is just working all the time and connected all the time. So, I think
it’s, I think it’s super important. So, you, so you talked a little bit about
your, the aspects of the body that you find important for your work in your
body, but what about other people’s bodies? I think you touched a little bit on
this idea of like, not wanting to be or being, having issue with being touched
by White cishet men. Which, same, so what other aspects of others’ bodies Right?
Are important when you’re in, in your field in choreography or if you’re, you
know, for example, doing martial arts.What about sort of other folks?

Makisig: Yeah, I, this is, I feel like this is the deepest closest to my
goals  as a human, um, of like how my, how
am I creating a space for other bodies, especially because when I’m making
work, I’m rarely making work as a solo body. I’m working with others and I’m
often choosing to be in collaboration. Oftentimes I’m collaborating with my partner,
Anya Cloud, but which is also like, you know, she’s a cis White woman, but we have
a lot of alignment in our value system of how to work with people. And, but I’m
choosing oftentimes, because, you know, this is my community and so I choose to
work with queer bipo people and I’m choosing to work with them in the way that
I would like to be experiencing spaces. So, what, what I was talking to you
about, like in these spaces that are super unaware of how they are being,
discriminating me as a person of color, for example, or as a queer person. So,
I like to create spaces where people feel age like that. They have agency like
that they, their, that what their needs are matters and their artistic senses
and who they are as people and artists and how is the work enlivening that, how
are my, how is my work enlivening these parts of themselves and how do I not
take it from them of being like, oh, I made that. You know, like, I am, I think
that it’s rare that we are making as choreographers. It’s rare that we are, um,
showing just our art. Like this is my, this is my choreography. Like I would
never do that because I know for a sense that in my work, I am interested in
people showing who they are as artists within that work. So, empowering them to
make decisions for themselves. If it feels like they are doing something that
is disembodied, they’re doing something that’s not their work, like, that’s not
coming naturally from them. I try to shy away from that. So, I’m like, okay,
what, what feels good for you? Like, I want people to feel, to, to sense into
their body and seeing, is this true to me? So oftentimes I really, I’m
interested in the dancers to empower themselves in a way to be able to say that
actually I don’t want to be doing this section, for example, like, this doesn’t
feel good for my body, or like, maybe this is too hard for them. Then I’m like,
okay, then what feels easier for you? Like, how can you exist in that? Can you
exist in that? In a different way, or do you wanna be completely omitted from
that?  So, in the making of the
choreography, it’s oftentimes this kind of conversations I’m having with people
like, first I’m describing to them what is my goal and like what is the work
about Right? Quote unquote, because. I don’t know. It could be about whatever I
say, but when people experience it, it’s different. Right. So, I am coming into
terms with that, knowing that that’s completely always there, but that the
dancers also understand that they can inside of, inside of the work, make their
own decisions. That they are completely like, yes, I want them to make
decisions. I want them to tell me when something feels good and not good, and
we can be in a live conversation around that, so that the work doesn’t die
actually. So, when it’s being performed, it’s real people you’re seeing there
in their own craft, in their own power. So, I hope that’s clear.

Gian: Yeah, that’s great. No, that makes a lot of sense. Um, I’m super,
I’m really, I very much relate to this idea of, um, relationality and not
wanting to, you know, take from people and to, you know, especially in whatever
work we do, I think, uh, no person is a vacuum, right? No person exists in a
vacuum, rather, no person is an island. So that kind of thing where, you know,
where, where we exist as, you know, in a, in a community rather than just one
sort of lone genius, which is very much like the western paradigm, right? so
yeah. No, that’s really cool. This is, this very much relates, we’ve been
segueing very nicely into all of these, into all of these sections that I have
for the, for the questions. But I’m curious also in your work, I see a strong
sort of vision for how you want to do it, but what developments, do you see in
your field relating to embodiment or relating to this notion of, of
relationality, for example, what do you, what would, what do you see and what
would you like to see?

Makisig: Yeah. I was kind of nervous about this question.

Gian: Oh, no. Okay. I’m excited actually.

Makisig: Yeah. Just because, you know, for me, I, I feel like some days it
depends, you know, like, I don’t wanna be so critical that like, there I’m just
like this grumpy choreographer or something.  But I, so I want, I wanted to start with is
that like, I am in the practice of all of the things I said, which means that
I’m not perfect at it. Right? So, what I’m saying, oh yeah. Like I really wanna
keep my dancers, the dancers,  weird. See?
again, my dancers like this word of my dancers, like it’s you, you don’t own
them. There’s not a kind of owning, right? So, I stumble into things like this.
For me, when I say that I want to keep people alive in the way that I’m
working, that is, like a path where I’m sometimes really good at it and
sometimes I’m not. And I need these conversations between us to happen in order
for that to work. So, we’re taking care of the space together, right? So, I’m
not just like in charge the whole time. Cuz also like in that practice of being
in charge is another way of colonizing. So that’s another perspective that I
don’t wanna be working in. So, what I, that, that’s why I’m, I’m being a bit,
um, nervous about this answer, is because I think that we can practice even
more. This is this, this is what I want to answer, which means that our field
has a lot to go. So, a lot more learning to go. It’s a long way to get to the
point, to the place where I’m like, wow. Like we are here now. I am definitely
finding artists who are young, Queer, BIPOC artists that are, finding their
voice and empowering me. As the same identity to create the same works. So,
like, we’re kind of like re feeding off of each other, like, wow, like you just
did that amazing. And the next thing I’m making my own thing. And then you hear
someone say, wow, you, that’s amazing. You, you are empowering me to do this.
And then so I feel like we are slowly, slowly getting there. Um, but again,
those experiences I told you was only two years ago. So that’s there, there’s
like such a split, you know, there are like massive amounts of works being
made. That for me feels like I am so curious about the people in there and I
feel like that’s not happening. I feel like they are not being empowered in the
work. I’m experiencing that a lot. I’m seeing that a lot, especially for works
that are coming from people who are not, Queer, Black, people of color. Like,
it’s just, I feel like somehow these white choreographers have a lot more work
to do there, and I’m oftentimes finding that, you know, and so I’m, I’m also
finding it in, in people of color, works for sure, but somewhat how, because
it’s less, common. I think it’s because we are really seeing, yeah, seeing
like, okay, we are existing in a westernized form anyway. We are existing in a
field that is dominated by White people. And so, when we’re given that one
sliver of a chance to create work, we’re making work that. Is going to be
speaking to experiences like ours. So, I don’t know, like it’s a quite a
dilemma, you know, like how do you get a white person to find the same value
system to be, to find it important to create a space that is actually
inclusive, to create a space that’s not racist when it’s not their experience. So,
there’s a lot of education there that needs to happen. So that’s my answer, I
feel. Yeah,

Gian: No, that resonate mean I care about it. I mean, I, I struggle with
this on a daily basis. I think, especially as somebody in education space. Part
of this research, the, the goals of this research project are to tackle some of
the questions you’re answering. Specifically, around, you know, Folks in
majority positions and their relations to other folks who have been
minoritized. So I think, yeah, there’s a lot there and I, I really appreciate,
you know, the answers and the work that you’re doing. So, for me, I guess
really the last kind of couple of questions are kind of intertwined, I would
say. The first one would be, do you have any questions or reflections or things
you want to say to me? And do you have any sort of ending words, any ending
messages that you would like to put out there? for the audience, so it could be
combined, it could be, you could leave one behind, however you like to, to wrap
this, this really nice interview up.

Makisig: Yeah. I would say, Gian, that I’m just very happy to be given the space
to speak. Like I think again, for me, when, when you offered it to me, I was
really like, oh no, like I’m not sophisticated in my speaking enough to be
heard, you know? And so, I feel honored, and I feel, Yeah, excited about, be being
given the space and, and I would like to extend my gratitude about that. So yes.

Gian:  of course, yeah.

Makisig: I don’t, yeah, I don’t have a question.. I feel, I just feel like
excited about the fact that this is existing and that you are doing the work
that you’re doing, and I want to just say, like, affirm that and say, thank you
for that and please continue. Yeah, and for the last words, I’d like to just be
able to say that, yeah, I don’t wanna end in a negative note. Like, I really don’t
like, I really do love people choosing to be in this field because it is hard
to be in this field, particularly to be a person of color and to be a Queer
person. You know, it’s, it’s hard to choose to be in this field, and it’s
great. Thank you for going and find your community. Find the people, find the
other people that empower you, you know, and, and yeah, I really, from this
conversation that we had, I really appreciate this. Focus on like how, what’s
your relationship with your body and how is it telling you to. Be in action,
like to speak up to, make something out there and to yeah. To communicate to
others, to the world what you are about. And so, yeah, I feel, I feel. Excited
about this conversation.

Gian: Nice. Yeah, I think that’s the, I think that’s the, uh, the note we
can end on the theme of speaking up. I think it’s really important. And you
did, you, you did a great job of speaking up in this interview and I, yeah, I
wanna say thank you as well to you for, for agreeing. And I guess, yeah, on
that note, we can, um, you know, end it here. Obviously, the conversation will
continue, continue between Makisig and myself. But also, the audience out
there, if you are listening, please comment, please engage, please interact. I
wanna hear your thoughts on our thoughts and on their thoughts. So, please,
yeah, let me know. Let us know. And, so I guess we’ll just say, we’ll just say
goodbye for now. Um, and thanks for listening. Yeah. Okay.

Makisig: Thank you.

Gian: Yep. Sure. Bye-bye. Okay.