With Kanoelani Patterson, @thepowerliftingsocialworker on Instagram, contributor to Deconstructing the Fitness industrial Complex

Gian: Hey everyone. I’m Gian. I am a postdoctoral researcher at the
Amsterdam School of Communication Research. And today I am joined by Kanoelani Patterson,
who is a licensed master social worker, a therapist and powerlifter. She has
written on the embodied experience of black women, in the published anthology
decolonizing the fitness industrial complex. Please welcome me in joining Kanoelani.
 Hey, what’s up? Hey, how are you? I’m
doing great. How are you?

Kanoelani: I am good.

Gian: Nice, nice. So, I’m really excited to talk to you today. Sorry,
excuse me. Uh, I just, you know, really want to dive in and like get your, get
your perspective on all the stuff that we talk about here at, uh, the Critical
Beings Podcast.So basically, yeah. Is there anything before we begin that you’d
like to add to your introduction? A little bit more about yourself, about your
work, about what you do, what you find important? I’m all ears.

Kanoelani: I think like it’s really important, like. The main, like humans
that I work with are children. I have like, I have a small caseload of adults, just
like a handful. But most of, most of the people that I work with are children
and families. That’s actually really important to me, because I feel like that
is the best part, and the best point to start to like work on ourselves is like
when we’re children and so, I get to deal with a lot of children from, a lot of
different, like places in life. Teens, little guy, little kids, Just, you know,
and all dealing with different things. And so I’m just kind of like lucky to be
like their person that they talk to and we just talk to a vast talk, talk to
about like a vast number of things. You know, and work through their different
issues.

Gian: Nice. Yeah, that’s really, that’s, that’s really cool. So when
working with young kids and sort of kids of different ages, I mean, just to get
right into the theme of the podcast, how does embodiment play a role? What are
the, are you doing anything in terms of, cause I mean, I know obviously when we
think of therapists, we think of like psychology and all that, but, um, you
know, bodies are super important and super big. How does that manifest in your
work?

Kanoelani: I think it shows up a lot, especially from my youngest client
clients that are like five to even adults. You see how bodies and like body
image, body size, as like as a fat therapist, like you just, you, you just see
it in so many different ways. The ideas of how, how children look and how
people will. Talk about them. How other children will say things like someone
calling them fat, upsets them. And so that gives me a chance as someone who
self-identifies as fat, gives me a chance to kind of like, help them dig into
like why that hurtful, and what that means to them. Sometimes people think
like, well, this is a five-year-old. Like, it’s like, no, like the
five-year-old,  we have now are
completely different. They are, they like, they have like full sentences, and
they will tell you how they feel. They will tell you what they don’t like. So
it, it’s great like, and again, even then with teens, of course it’s even
broader, because they’re getting older.And so, it gives me a chance to like,
Provide education. And then also just talk about, you know, themselves and like
how this is affecting like their mental health.

Gian: Yeah, that’s, so the one point that you brought out that I really
just would love to speak more about is this notion of fat identify. Can you say
a little bit about that? That’s really interesting.

Kanoelani: I think, like for a long time, for a lot of folks who are, who are
fat or plus-sized people, for a lot of us, a lot of us grew up, at least I did.
I am pretty much; I like to say like I’m a lifelong fat person. I’m somebody
who was a fat child and I’m a fat adult. And so, growing up, like some, the,
the way that fatness was kind of like, it usually was like, hold at me in
insults, like this negative thing, but I think within the last little while,
um, fat activists have reclaimed that word to be a neutral descriptor. Like it
just describes, it describes what I look like, but it doesn’t exactly. Describe
like anything else. It doesn’t describe like what I feel inside, but it kind of
can explain a lot of other things, like, like the discrimination that I’ve
faced and different things like that.

Gian: Yeah. And then it’s not like a moral value of like who you are as a
person.

Kanoelani: Not at all. Yeah. It’s not a good or a bad, it just is.

Gian: Yeah, no, I get that. I’m actually, I’m really interested in like
fat studies and a lot of these things I’ve, I just finished reading a book,
called, fearing the Fat Body.

Kanoelani: yes

Gian: Super, super interesting.

Kanoelani: Yes, Deshaun is absolutely amazing.That’s one of my favorite
books.,

Gian: Yes, yes.

Kanoelani: Deshaun Harrison is absolutely amazing.

 Gian: Yes, yes, yes. Exactly. So they, I
actually just listened to a podcast that my friend edited, shut up Kyle,
Deshaun was on this, this, the podcast and talk about talking about their book.
So, we, yeah, so.

Kanoelani:  Yeah, they’re amazing.

Gian: Yeah, they’re super, super wonderful. So, yeah, but going back to,
I mean, yes, fat critical fatness and all of these things, and bringing in this
idea of being critical. The, the theme of the podcast is kind of, we’re talking
about embodiment, we’re talking about critical, and I think it’s super
important to call into question, right? Like, why are we taught. You know that
fat is bad, that, you know, it means x, y, z about us. What do you, what are
you, seeing in your, in your work as a, as a therapist maybe, but also in sort
of other work that you do, other spaces that you exist? Where does that, where
does, like, what do you think, um, explains that phenomenon?

Kanoelani: I think, it, you know, from what we’ve seen, and what a lot of,
Activists and just different people writing, 
writing and, and from like fat studies, like people talk about how like
this started, like with like with white supremacy and with, you know, with the
way that, you know, bodies were being picked apart and like they hadn’t been
before. You know, when enslaved people got to this continent, and also
indigenous bodies being here already, just all of a sudden, like their bodies
not being enough, and all of a sudden something’s wrong with them or they’re
seen as being like these, quote unquote like monsters or savages, because their
bodies are different. And so, now what’s happened is that’s kind of like
permeated like the, the construct of not just American like sensibilities, but
just it’s worldwide. Anti-fat is worldwide. so and, and so it was like
anti-blackness and white supremacy, so because of that, now what you’re, what
we see is, you know, I talk about how, how a lot of it starts in our families,
right?And like, how we’re raised and stuff, and at least for me, that’s where
it started. You know, I had no sense that that was a bad thing, until I did,
until I started gaining weight. Like, I didn’t know there was anything wrong
with it until someone put a value on it. And like, until they either said
something was wrong or they told me that I needed to lose it, you know, that
let me know, oh, there must be something wrong with this or like the way I was
being treated, I was like, there’s something wrong with me. You know, not that
there was something wrong with these people, but it, it was me. There was
something wrong with me. So, I think a lot, for a lot of people, it starts off
usually at home. You know, beyond, historical start of like anti-fat and stuff
like that, it starts at home for most people.

Gian: Yeah, but it’s also, I mean, so I love that link that you make
between this, these historical, right? We talk about the black body; we talk
about the indigenous body as though it’s this monstrous other and then
constructed vis-a-vis the sort of Anglo or American or European white self.

Kanoelani: Um, mm-hmm

Gian: And that is per, as you say, it’s global.I live in, I live in the
Netherlands. I’ve lived in a, a few other countries as well. And like I, we, I
see these things that exist independently of the US American, you know?

Kanoelani: Mm-hmm.

Gian: Context, um, well, maybe not fully independently, but you know,
they’re not, it is not as though everything that is exists in the US maps out
one-to-one to the context here.

Kanoelani: That’s right.

Gian: But at the same time, it’s like, oops, almost done. It’s like we,
we we’re over here. You know? So, exactly. So, so I see that, but then I also
think like, okay, so how do we relate to one another? And I’m actually
interested also in your perspective on this as well, like, How do we, for
example, like, if I’m thinking about role models or colleagues or, you know,
folks that I want to be in community with that share my various identities, how
does that look like, look like for you are, how do you identify or not right
with the people that do the kind of work that you do?

Kanoelani: It can be difficult at times, because a lot of times, I talk about,
I talk to other, other fab folks that I’m friends with and in community with.
We talk about this all the time, like sometimes, like especially like, so, so
much stuff is online, right? Like we are like
social media in community with a lot of people. And so, it’s like from
someone’s bio, like you might feel like, okay, they’re like, They’re like on my
level. And then you find out later that maybe they really aren’t. So, so a lot
of times, a lot of times it’s really in like the questioning, right? In the
questions that we ask people about like their politics because like whether we
like it or not, someone’s politics, like that’s, it’s not just the politic
isn’t just personal, right? It’s also. It affects us. Um, it affects a lot of
us every day. So, what somebody believes and what they think and stuff like
that matters. And to like critically, like think about why you think the way
that you do and how that thinking affects the way you treat other people.

Gian: Yeah, I think, I think also, you know, and this goes back to, to
the podcast, so I’m, I’m thinking about like, so we, the way that we think, but
also the way that we be, right, the way that we like yes.You know, out here
exist in the world because like. I have, I’ve met so many people that like, or
at least in, in the academic sphere, you meet so many people that are wonderful
thinkers, wonderful. You know, philosophy, sociology, you know, anthropology,
all that. And then it’s like, okay, but you’re out here being anti-black, or
you’re out here being Anti-fat.

Kanoelani: Yes.

Gian:  Or you’re out here being,
you know, homophobic or transphobic or whatever. And I’m like, okay, but these
two things, like the math ain’t math in, you know, so I’m like, so, so that’s,
it’s, it’s, I mean, it’s reassuring, but also. Disappointing to hear that you,
you see that as well. And you mentioned something also in the questioning, so
can maybe, can you, can you talk a bit, a little bit about more, maybe provide
an example, I don’t know, you don’t need to put nobody out on blast, but like,
you know, say something about like, okay, so how does it look like when you
encounter a bio and then, oops, that person might not be.

Kanoelani: What I was thinking. Yeah. I mean, because a lot of times people
say, you know how people are like, I am, you know, they’ll have like Black
Lives Matter and all this other like stuff, and you’d be like, maybe. But it
usually shows up in, just, even in the way people make comments and stuff like
that, and you’re like, wait a minute, it’s what you just said. Like you, these
people that like have these, like they, they can think, you know, they, they
have these just amazing minds. But then they’re just really like, they have
just this raggedy way of like, talking about people, like, just because
somebody looks different than them or someone loves differently than them. And
so it usually comes out like, I mean, cause it’s happened to me before, like it
usually comes out really randomly. And I’m one of those people, like, when I
find things like that out, like I can’t just, like, I’m not the kind of person
that can let stuff go. So, like, usually I have to like separate myself from
those people. Because I can’t, like, I can’t have people like that around me. That’s
like that kind of negative energy. I also don’t want to be responsible for
having those kind of people with. With not just myself, but other people that
might be negatively impacted by like their actions and stuff like that.

Gian: Hmm, yeah. That’s real.

Kanoelani: because I care about people enough not
to wanna do that.

Gian: Yeah, it’s difficult to kind of get that key to, you know, cordon
off that energy, but I’m wondering where do you think this raggedness comes
from? I’m like, you loud, like, where’s the, where’s the?

Kanoelani: White supremacy, white supremacy.

Gian: I mean, you said it. We were all thinking it, so, you know. Okay.
Okay. I see you. So, All right. I mean, it is what it is. Like we could just
call it. I mean, that’s that. Yeah. So, I have, so like, I have like all these
questions, but like really, you know, when we talk about these kind of things
like. Because one of the things that I really want to, one of the, one of the
messages that I want have out here on this podcast is not so much like, oh, you
know, the critical thinking and the philosophy and the, this, that, and the
other, but I do want to target the Raggedness and be like, yo, like there’s
another way to approach that.To call people out. Yeah, call people in or to be
definitely, you know, careful with it, but also like coming from a sense of
community care. Do you find, is that something that you. Would like to try, or
try to do or think is, you know, what, how do you feel about that?

Kanoelani: Yeah. And definitely like, there have been
many times when I’ve been able to do that with people.

Gian: Okay.

Kanoelani: what I always find is like, it’s like they’re willing to do it through.
Like, our people that double down and stuff like that, I already know. Maybe I
can’t do that with them, but I think a, a big thing for me is like, especially
when we talk about community, Is like making amends like, and like to the
people, like they’ve harmed in like the things they’ve said, you know, or the,
or their actions.You know, and really just find to have like that restorative
type of like, justice with the people that they’ve harmed, because like I feel
like a lot of times that. Does a lot of good in showing that, you know, you’re
not just a quote -quote ally, but you’re like a comrade in this fight, right?
Like, you want to change, you know? And, and we know people who don’t want to
change because like I said, they double down and they just don’t want to be
wrong. But there are people who, you know, really want to know better.

Gian: For sure, for sure. And for me, like a comrade, like I love that
language because a comrade isn’t somebody that’s going to like sit there and be
like, oh, you know, everybody has their opinions. And no, no, no, no. A comrade
is gonna be okay with being like, oh shit, I fucked up. You know? Yes. A
comrade is gonna be like, oh, let me, you know, make a, let me throw some coins
at you. Let me make amends, let me do something. And another thing that I
wanted to say as well is this idea of community is so important for me because
like if, for example, you know, somebody does something messed up to somebody
else, like, you know, some person A is over here, you know, acting out of
pocket and then you over, you say, okay, like, look, that was wrong to that
person. And they double down and they don’t change and they don’t, you know, it
doesn’t, it they, it falls on deaf ears. I feel like it’s still necessarily
important to say that. Because you show that mess is not okay. Like none of
that is acceptable.

Kanoelani: Definitely.

Gian: And I think, you know, sometimes we forget that like, you know, our
communication isn’t in a bubble, and we exist relationally. And to say like,
oh, you know, this is not what we do here. Like, you might be able to say that,
but there will be repercussions for your actions. And you kind of show like the
other people who are watching or listening or expect, you know, expect you to
say something, you don’t wanna let them down.  I feel like that also for me at least, if that
ever happens, like if I’m in a classroom and a student says something like
raggedy, I’m like, wait, because there’s probably somebody else in this room
that doesn’t feel comfortable speaking up. So, let’s not, let’s, let’s not do
that. You know what I’m saying?

Kanoelani: Yeah. I mean, and, and I’ve most definitely, I have, I’ve done it
in therapy sessions.I’ve done it to parents before, like the thing about
knowing me is like I am, while I have a filter, I do not take any shit and
because I don’t take any shit, I also, that also transfers over to my therapy
work too, because I’m very like in your face and I’m very like, no, that’s not
okay. Like you. Like, ’cause especially with kids, like they will say all the
things to upset somebody. I’m like, mm, no. That’s not okay to talk about your
mom. Like that. Like you, like you are allowed to have your feelings, but you
need to, you need to find a different way to say that because that was
disrespectful.

Gian: That’s real. So, I’m interested in, you know, this idea of not
having a filter. Like voicing, you know, having, being out there when I ask
all, all the guests this question, and I love everybody’s response. They’re
always so interesting and unique. When I say the word critical, what comes to
mind to you? What do you think Critical? What, what is critical to you?

Kanoelani: I think “critical” can mean I think a, a couple different things.
Like, I think like when I think of critically, it’s like important, like, that
something is really important, and then I think of something like critical
thinking. And I, when I think about like that, in that aspect, it’s like you’re
really like zoning in on like the really important things about something. And,
you know, not necessarily picking it apart, but like you’re really getting to
the heart of the matter.

Gian: Yeah, yeah, no, definitely. I mean, everybody, like I said, people,
we have the idea of critical and some people there think there’s like a negative
connotation and of course, you know, to them, and it can be, yeah. And that’s totally legit, right? Like everybody,
like the, the thing about communication and the thing about different words is
that they mean different things of different people. So, I love that, but when
I say so, and when I say like critical and, uh, when I say to practice
critique, then what does that mean to you?

Kanoelani: So, critiquing, right, We’re looking at something or like we just
talked about like people’s actions or something of, or somebody, something that
somebody said, and we are just kind of delving in or we’re digging in and we’re
looking at it and what it, what it’s like. Its meaning is, and then also like
the, the pros and the cons, like the good parts of this, but also where there
may need to be some changes, or like they could have done this better. And I
think that’s where it’s hard for some people is like taking that like type of
like critique, is like hearing any negatives about something that they’ve done.

Gian: Yeah. And do you, so you already talked a little bit about, when
you practice critique or when you, you know, are critical maybe towards the
way, uh, your patients express their emotions. But are there any other
instances that you can think of where you are more critical or less critical in
your work?

Kanoelani: I would definitely say I would, I would definitely say I am very
critical in just, I mean, obviously I’m very critical in the way that I am, you
know, critiquing like my clients and stuff like that. And not necessarily their
emotions, but sometimes just the way they say things, and families really. I
think it’s a really big thing with families. Cause a lot of people don’t take,
like I said, they don’t take criticism well. Especially kids, but their
families don’t either. Being told that you’re, you know, dealing with your
child in the wrong way and it’s upsetting them, a lot of parents don’t handle
that very well.Just so just kind of like learning how to like manage that in a
way. Um, that’s like coming from a place of love and empathy. That’s how I like
to use like critique is like with always, with like compassion and with love
and never necessarily making people feel bad, but just so that they can see,
like, have some perspective.

Gian: Yeah. I mean, ’cause we can, we can critique in a caring sense,
there’s like also a critical

Kanoelani: Yeah, A kind way.

Gian: Yeah, yeah. Kindness. A critical care, you know, and I think also,
especially in like maybe therapy sessions or in my case educational settings,
like I teach a lot and when I’m, when I’m teaching, I always try to think like,
okay, so how do I critique this in such a way that the person is better
afterwards, or if they, if they’re more, if they’re stronger at their goal or
what they’re trying to do. Cause it’s like, I see that they wanna do something,
but they’re not necessarily getting at it. So the critique is a tool to, to use
that or to, to to, to go towards that.

Kanoelani: Yeah, exactly.

Gian: Yeah. Nice. Nice. So, uh, when we talk about critique towards
others, are there, are there ever times when you might be sort of self-critical
or critical towards yourself or something that you might experience? All the
time. All the time. Okay. Let’s talk about all the time.

Kanoelani: Um, I’m a, um, I’m definitely a, I am somebody that is, I will
always tell people like I’m hardest on myself. Like even down to like after
like, Therapy sessions. Like I’m always asking myself like, you know, like,
could I have done better? And like I always, and I’ve been like that.  I’ve actually, I’ve always been like that.
I’ve always wanting to know like how I can do something better, how I can
improve, So, yeah, I’m very self-critical. That’s both a negative and a
positive. A positive because like it allows me, some space for growth, so that,
that I’m not stagnant. So that’s a good thing, but bad in that it can
definitely, affect me negatively, when I’m too critical about myself.

Gian: How do you, so I, I like, you know, the idea of growth and being,
you know, true or sort of overly critical. How do you strike a balance with
that?

Kanoelani: It’s difficult. I think balance in life in general is difficult, but
I think like when, I always like to think like, what? Like, you know, I think
it’s kind of like the same as doctors. Like for us it’s hard for like
therapists and things like that for, for people that are in like a profession
that you deal with people all the time. It’s hard for us a lot of the times to
remember the words that we tell our people. Like the things that I tell my
clients, like it’s hard for me to remember that stuff for myself. So sometimes
I have to step back and say like, what do you tell your clients? Like, like
this self-talk, this very critical self-talk that you’re giving yourself. Is
this with kindness? Are you being kind to yourself? Are you loving yourself in
the things that you’re saying about yourself? Are you giving yourself
compassion? Because if it’s no to any of those things, then. This is, this isn’t,
we’re not being, this is being over or being overly critical and it’s not
healthy.

Gian: Yeah,  it’s this, I, I feel
like I, there’s a lot of points of synergy right there for me as well, because
I often, I often think about the critique that I give my students, for example,
and then the critique that I look at for when I, for example, when I’m reading
my papers or whatever, and I think about like, am I rather than like thinking
about this in a, you know, cerebral way? Am I feeling it or am I being it? Am I
being, am I integrating the kind of response that I would like to, you know, you
know, so I’m just kind of like, okay, so there’s a lot. Yeah. There’s a lot
that resonates with what you’re saying. And I think, I think also, you know,
trying to get, you know, when we internalize it, it becomes part of our bodies,
I think, right? Like if we, if carry it becomes a, a, a gut reaction to, rather
than go to the, the place of like, oh, you’re not good enough, or oh you know,
All that negative self-talk. If it, if it becomes embodied, then it’s like, oh,
this is the baseline for how I talk to myself or how I exist in the world. It’s
not so much thinking, it’s not, you know, responding in a certain way because
it’s just like, oh, I’m comfortable and this is how I exist in the world. That’s
what I, that’s where I’m, what I got from what you were saying, so, exactly.
Nice. Cool, cool, cool. So, I wanna go to, the place of embodiment for a little
bit because I’m really curious about, like, for example, how you as a
self-identified fat person, how, you know, as a black woman, you describe like
your body in your everyday life. Like not even in the work, but also how does,
like, how do all of these identity markers impact you? I’m really curious to
hear about this.

Kanoelani: I think it affects every, like, every area in my life. You know,
from the personal to the professional, there are many a statistic that talks
about how, in a lot of fat studies people have talked about how being fat kept
them from getting jobs, from getting housing, you know, and just the level and
just adequate medical care. And so, when you, obviously I can’t, I don’t just
exist as, as fat or as black or as a woman, I do that all at once, right? So,
you know, so that means like not only like if I go to with a doctor, not only
do I, am I on the receiving end of medical racism, but also like weight stigma
and, anti-fat, from doctors. And I’ve been enduring that since I was a child. So
just experiencing all those things. It’s, it’s like, it’s, it’s a lot to take,
job wise, like I think. This is where like we talk about privilege and stuff
like that being an educated person, I think that has helped me to not, um, feel
like I necessarily lost jobs because I was fat.Now I very much probably could
have lost a job because I was black. because we know that happens, but having
the privilege of being educated, and having degrees. And then, being someone
that has at least one license. Like I don’t have my clinical license, but you
know, I’m, I’m at least at a master’s level in social work. So that puts me at
another level, again, privilege, where somebody who is less educated than me,
also existing in a fat body, and black and a woman or trans or, gay or what
have you, you know, they may experience, even worse because they don’t have the
privilege of the education that I do.

Gian: I think it’s really important, to yeah, to remember these
intersections and to think about like, okay, so you have, you know, the social
class, but then we also have, race, we have gender, and I mean, speaking about,
for example, medical stigma. I do, I really like that you highlighted this
point that you know, women, in general are given less pay medication or give
are, are not heard. And then if you compound black women spec specifically,
they’re also, you know, have, higher rates of, dying in childbirth, you know,
litany of medical, you know, documented medical racism and mortality. And then
you add anti-fat on this where a lot of your legitimate health concerns that
are completely unrelated to your weight are sort of given the, oh, well you
need to lose weight kind of thing. It’s like exactly. All of these things, they
compound on one another. So, we often talk about intersectionality as though
it’s you know, like I. Plus points, like, oh, this person is black and gay and
trans, so they are plus 10, but it’s not like that.

Kanoelani: Yeah.

Gian: It’s much more complex than that. And nevertheless, there are
layers that stack up in a, in certain ways. Right. Yeah. So, it’s difficult and
I completely understand, you know, or not completely, but I, I can kind of, I
can see, you know, where, where you’re coming from when you mention these
things. Yeah. Yeah. So, what, in relation to that, what sort of aspects of your
body, you know, you mentioned it a little bit in terms of in terms of work and
in terms of, of personal, but what kind of aspects of your body do you find it
like important for others? Right? Like when you, when you know, for example,
you have clients or you have employers, or you have, you know, folks in your
personal life, what kind of aspects do you think, make a difference as it were?

Kanoelani: I think like, the fact that like I continue to show up, like I do
not let, and I haven’t let much of anything stop me. Like I show up very
unapologetically as myself, from the way that I dress at times to my
personality. I, and if you ask anybody, they’re like, you always have something
to say. I always have something to say.I question everything. I always got a
question. That’s just my, that’s my nature. I always wanna know why, why are we
doing this? and so like, I think just that, because a lot of times. And again,
As a lifelong fat person, I’m 41, and as somebody who, for parts of my life,
like I talk about how I didn’t feel like I was really living my life like I
was, like, I was kind of like just there. But I wasn’t really experiencing my life
because I kind of let like this, stuff was internalized, like the internalized
anti-fatness and the way that I saw myself kind of kept me from living the
fullness of my life that I could, because it’s this idea of just constantly
apologizing for being who I am instead of just showing up and saying like,
well, if you don’t like it, just fuck you. And so now I’m at the, I’m at a
better part of my life where I’m just showing up, and I think sometimes, like
that’s half the battle is just showing up regardless. Showing up for my
clients, showing up for myself, in my body, not making apologies, not
explaining to people. Why I look the way that I do, you know? And people always
wonder like, well, how do you deal with that? With clients? Especially, this
happens a lot with like littler clients, like, you know, cause the littler ones
will, like, they’ll hug you and they’ll be like, why do you feel this way? Why
do you look this way? Like, it’s not anti-fat. It’s curious like, They’re
little and so they’re curious. And so, what I always tell people is like you
can answer their questions. Like, you know, it gives you a perfect opportunity
to explain to them that all bodies look different. And you know, it gives you.

From
this part, there was a technology issue.

Gian: Okay, sorry. Technical difficulty. So, as you were saying, you can
answer questions if someone comes up to you and ask questions.

          
Back to normal.

Kanoelani: Yeah, you can. It gives you an opportunity to really like to
explain to them how all bodies are different, and you can really educate them
on, on bodies and, and, and that. You know that not all bodies look the same. And
so, you can talk to them about body diversity and you can also tell them like,
you know, with the littler ones kind of harder to explain, but that like, you
know, that maybe we shouldn’t talk about other people’s bodies because that
might hurt some people’s feelings. So, like, it just gives you a chance to kind
of educate. And to also, just get that message out that like, about body
diversity. And so I always love that. I love when I get comments like that. I
know some people like, it embarrasses them. It doesn’t embarrass me. I always
just think it’s cute and like we talk about it, and we move on and we go play.

Gian: Yeah. And it’s, it’s nice also to kind of bring up this idea, but
it’s not, or like, Antifa or anti-blackness are not like learned behaviors.
It’s not like, oh, that, you know, student or children or you know, little ones
come out of the womb and they’re like, oh, I hate this per, or I dislike this
person because X, Y, Z. It’s like we are socialized in a lot of these ways to

 Kanoelani: yes.

Gian:  Fear or hate, uh, these
things, right? So, yeah. But, so, okay, so we talk, so we’re talking a little
bit about, you know, bodies, in your field of work. do you notice, for example,
an so the bodies of other people in your field, so let’s say social work, for
now, do you notice that, other, aspects that might make a difference?

Kanoelani: I think like, I think in, definitely in, in my work, What I’m, what
I’m noticing right now is, there’s always this push, for, like diet culture and
stuff like that. And so I’m even noticing it at least at my level. Now I don’t
work for the state, but what I’ve worked for the state government before, what
that meant was like, you know, you know, talking about like. Weighing children
and things like that. And so those are things that I do not like, and I don’t
agree with, because many studies have proven that, it’s very harmful to children,
It’s harmful to people, and a lot of times that’s when people start developing
eating disorders and things like that. So, what I’m noticing, When I worked for
the state government, that was the, the big thing, this idea of like health, and
these like health numbers and stuff like that. And so instead of kind of like,
really thinking about the things that affect people’s health, like the social
determinants of health thing, things like someone that’s living in poverty, somebody
who’s not getting adequate nutrition. Because they are living in poverty, you
know, climate change, pollution. I mean, there’s just so racism. Like, there’s
just so many things that, I think are getting left out. And so, like in my
work, Like while I acknowledge those things, um, I don’t feel like everyone
else is, I feel like there’s a lot of work that still needs to be done, to
really bring about the kind of change that, um, would actually be really
helpful for people and to really like change people’s lives.

Gian: Yeah, I mean, you, you, you say it right? Like the, the, if
somebody is living in a food desert, they’re not going to be able to adequately
feed themselves, right?

Kanoelani: No.

Gian: And so it’s, it’s, it’s, we can weigh them, we can, you know,
ascribe um, individual solutions to structural problems all we want, but the
structures are still gonna be there.So, I think

Kanoelani: that’s that’s right.

Gian: Yeah. I mean, it’s, it’s very important to keep that in mind. So,
when you, when you say you acknowledge this in your work, how does that
manifest in a practical way? What does that, what does that look like, for
example, in a session or with, with parents or with clients? What,

Kanoelani: So, I have found a way that like most of my families are like, right
now most of my clients are all like Medicaid clients, so a lot of my clients are
lower income people, anyways, but one sec.

Gian: So, for, for those of us who are, for those folks who don’t know
the US um, insurance system, can you explain what Medicaid is?

Kanoelani: Yes. Um, so Medicaid is a lot of times you’ll see people who are,
who are. Lower income or who, or people who don’t, maybe they can’t work, maybe
they’re disabled.So, Medicaid just helps to pay for those things that, the
insurance that helps to pay for their medical care, their dental care, and
things like that. Or things like mental health. So I have a lot of clients,
like that are either. Have some kind of disability or their, um, their lower
income. And so because of that some people like to make certain assumptions. I
don’t, I like to ask questions. Like I said earlier, and a lot I’ve, I’ve been
able to, I think in, in therapy, I think like. You learn how to like really
build relationships with people. So, I am really big on building relationships
with my families, so that they’re comfortable with telling me like, we’re
really struggling right now.You know, like, I just lost my job or, you know,
like, or like them being able to feel comfortable to ask me like, do you know
of any food banks that can help us out? Do you know any places? because some
people, if they don’t feel safe enough, they may not ask you. Like if they’re
having a hard time financially and they need more access to food or like they
just lost their house, like they need, you know, shelters or whatever. So,
that’s where being a social worker is helpful. Cause I do have that, that part
as well. But just being able to like, again, move with compassion and have that
relationship with them already. That they can tell me like, what’s going on.
Because usually sometimes if the parents don’t say anything, ’cause maybe they
feel ashamed, which they shouldn’t be ashamed, life really just happens. Life
just be life and sometimes, so sometimes like the kids will tell me though,
like I’ll hear from them. They’ll tell me like, what’s going on? and you know,
that gives me an opportunity to. You know, if I have resources to point people
toward, then I can get them into those resources. So that like they can maybe
get a little bit more help, but yeah, so that’s where I think we see it the
most.

Gian: Okay. Yeah, that’s real. I mean, yeah, like you said, life, be life
in. I just do. So, this is, so that was, that was, I, so I’m interested. Yeah,
like you were talking about, you know, how, what the, what that might look like
for, you know, clients in the field, in your practice and, and that kind of
thing. So, I’m, I’m wondering, what developments do you see in the field and
whatever the, whatever the field means to you. Right. And then what would you
like to see? So, is it kind of growing in a direction that you think it should
or is there some sort of changes you would make or are you completely cool with
it as it is? I’m guessing that’s not the case, but you know,

Kanoelani: I think like what we’re, at least in the US what we’re seeing is
this push, like, I think away from, you know, when we talk about like critical
race theory and stuff like that. So, what we’re noticing now is this push away
from, you know, all these important victims. And like the, the talk about like
the social, determinants of health. I think there’s like, I feel like there’s a
push away from those things and now it’s kind of, this idea that. I feel like
people we’re going back to just like this bootstrapping idea that people can
just pull themselves up. You know that race does not play a part in anything
now. I mean, with our recent, Supreme Court decision with affirmative action,
so we’re kind of noticing this downturn in a lot of things.  So, for someone like me, like of course,
that’s a negative thing because for a lot of, a lot of my families, like those
things are so important to them. And like these are, especially for these kids,
like for some of them, this helps them have the possibility of going into
college going to college, going to. different trade schools, if that’s
important to them. And it impacts their like every day, and then some of them,
especially living in, some of them live in more rural communities.And
especially for like black and brown kids living in these rural communities,
being on the receiving end of racism, that’s like never acknowledged and
nothing is ever done about it. So, like those are things that are important.
Like I would, those are the things I’d like to see us doing things about, you
know, things like bullying, things like, again, racism. Us being able to talk
about those things. You know, us actually being able to actually change
people’s lives, um, change their circumstances, even in the smallest ways. I
think it would be really meaningful for most of, most of my families that I
work with.

Gian: Yeah. Yeah. So, so what would that, what would that look like?

Kanoelani: I think in some cases it might look like, you know, some program
now in the state that I’m in, they have, and I think in a lot of states, I’m in
a red state. so, I’m in a Republican state. And so, in a lot of states like
mine, like they’ve definitely took a knife and scissors to mental health, to
education, all the important things. Like we’ve cut funding, a lot of funding
has been lost. So, it definitely would mean like more funding in those areas, because
it’s making it hard for people, you know, hard for people to get by. and people
suffering, you know, they’re, they’re, they need help. they need like the,
you’ll notice, especially, or I am, you know, people are on waiting lists to
see like a therapist for like months. And therapists are like months out. I’m
not, but I have, and it’s probably because I’m, I work with kids, but most of
them are, and, you know, people are in these dire situations that they need
somebody to talk to. They need somebody to work through some stuff with, even
if it’s short term. just to get them to where they can cope better. So, I think
like initially a lot of its funding, it’s like, Really what that means is we
need people to actually vote in a way that actually helps themselves and helps
the community, because that’s not what’s happening right now. Right now, we
have a lot of people that, I feel like, like people like are voting with like
zero conscience of the fact that these things have consequences, you know?

Gian: Yeah, there’s two. So, there’s, there’s two points that I wanted
to, I wanna know that I see a lot of parallels between what you’re saying and
the that’s happening in the United States and what I see happening in the
Netherlands and what I see happening elsewhere. And it’s these people voting
against their own interests. So structurally having a message that says there
are other people. To blame for your problems. And if you vote for these people
in power, then somehow those problems will go away. And it’s not structural change
like voting for a more healthcare, voting for, you know, infrastructure, voting
for, you know, no, it’s actually, it’s voting against, migrant rights, women’s
rights LGBT rights, and somehow the problems never go away.And it’s like, why
did that happen? Right. So, it’s, it’s, yeah. And it’s, I know, shocker. Right?
And it’s the, it’s the same, it’s the same playbook in every, every region,
right? Yeah. Like, so we’re seeing in the us we’re seeing it in, in South
America, north America, and Europe and Africa. Like, it’s always quite similar
people don’t seem to be making those connections, which is really unfortunate. And
then I also wanted to mention, the therapist. Question or the point where
people are, who need people to talk to. Not having a therapist for months out,
like being, not having, you know, not being able to see a therapist for months,
coming very specifically from a personal example, this was my case in the
Netherlands, right? So, there’s a very good, um, healthcare system here, right?
You know, it’s, it’s, uh, you know, socialized medicine, all that. But
nevertheless, like. The way that it happens for a number of people. And I
actually do research on mental healthcare in migrants for folks who are not Dutch
or not European citizens.Uh, and the thing that I was hearing from a lot of my
research respondents was where they were saying, yeah, it took me weeks and
months and months to get access to somebody to talk to. And then that person
isn’t even trained to talk to somebody like me. So, you’re just like, oh man.
How does that, how is that even like, what’s going on?So, yeah, all I can say.

Kanoelani: I think we see that here. We see that here too.

Gian: Ooh. Say, can you say more?

Kanoelani: I feel like, I feel like people, I feel like I have a lot of
clients who even told me, like, I don’t even know why they, they gave me this
person. Like, they didn’t know. They didn’t know what they were talking about,
or they felt like they didn’t, so like, and it does take time to like get a
match, but like, if they don’t even, like, they don’t speak your language, like
that’s gonna be a problem. But like, it’s bad. I think mental healthcare across
like the world is just really, really, I mean, I don’t know if it’s like it’s,
there’s like, I think it’s a combination of there’s a lack of trained people
and there’s also.Some of us are not being, I, I think it’s a big issue of
there’s like a, a gap in pay of what some of us are receiving. So it’s like a
lot of people, some people have stopped doing therapy altogether and are like
working privately, because they’re just like not getting what they need to like
survive.So, like there are a lot of issues with mental healthcare, like, I
guess not just here, but worldwide.

Gian: Yep. Yep. Can confirm, can confirm. Um, so before, uh, before I go
to, um, some of the last kind of wrap up questions, I did wanna get briefly,
your, your take on sort of the power lifting aspect of things. I know you
mentioned that in your chapter, and I just kind wanted to touch base with you. How’s,
what’s going on, how you, how’s that going?

Kanoelani: So, so I’ve been on like a, I guess we could say I’ve been on kind
of like a bit of a break right now. Cause I’ve been just so, I’ve been so busy
with work, and I’ve been busy with I guess we can say I’ve been, been really
busy, since I am under supervision and I have to deal with that.I’ve been busy
with that stuff, trying to get fully licensed, so yeah, and, and life has
continued to life. I’ve had some job changes in between that. So I’ve had a lot
going on. So, I have kind of, I’ve really, honestly not really been in the gym
a whole lot, just because I’ve just been dealing with a lot of stuff.So…

Gian: As we say, life been lifein.

Kanoelani: It really does.

Gian: Okay. No, that’s, I mean, that’s, that’s real. That’s real. okay,
so, okay. Now I’m just gonna, I’m gonna ask the, the two, the two last
questions that I always ask people. Is there something that you feel that you
would like to express to the listeners to, you know, kind of have a wrap up
message?That’s the one thing. And the second thing, is there anything, is there
anything that you would like to say to me? Ask me, critique, comment, concern,
existential angst, you know, whatever it is, so the floor is yours for the last
one or two or no things.

Kanoelani: Well, I just wanna thank you for letting me come on here today and
talk, just about myself and just like my belief system and like what’s going on
in my part of the world. I don’t know. I think if I can give a message to
listeners is that like I see them, I hear you, like don’t give up., life is,
life Do be life. So, hold on. And really like, work with yourself with
compassion and love and empathy. Remember the same stuff you give to other
people, the same love, empathy, and compassion you give to other,

Gian: Oh wait, oh, wait.

You, you’re muted or something. Hang on one
second.

Kanoelani: So, I just wanna remind people that the same love, empathy, and
compassion that you give for other people, make sure you give that to yourself
too, um, and give yourself some grace, where when nobody is perfect. So that’s
okay. Just keep going.

Gian: Great. Okay.

Well, thank you Kanoelani for coming to talk
to me and sharing your wisdom and your expertise.And if I could just speak
directly to the listeners and watchers of the Critical Beings Podcast if
anything that either of us said resonated with you or you wanna discuss with us
or anything, then please, please, please comment in the transcript below. Just
highlight and click the speech bubble and you can have a continued conversation.
So that’s pretty much it. And I guess now we’ll just, say goodbye until the
next time.

Kanoelani: Yes.

Gian: Bye-bye. Okay.