With Dr. Caleb Stephens @csidentifight on instagram and creator of Eat. Protest. Lift.

 

Gian: All right. Okay. Hey everybody. Welcome to the Critical Beings Podcast. I’m Gian Hernandez, a postdoctoral researcher in the Amsterdam School of Communication Research. Today’s guest is a scholar, activist, multiple state and national US record holder, intersectional clinician, and the CEO and founder of Identifight LLC. Uh, let’s welcome my very good friend, Dr. Caleb Stephens. Hey, Caleb!

Caleb: Hey, thanks for having me.

Gian: No problem.  I’m really excited to dive into what we’re gonna talk about today.So, before we begin, is there anything else you want to add to this introduction? I know there’s so many more things, you have so many more accomplishments than just this, but I
wanted to be a little more concise, but let’s, you know, give you the space to
talk about yourself.

Caleb: Uh, no. I mean, I think one of the things people don’t know is that
you are part of my scholarship,

Gian: This is true. We can definitely link that in the description to
this video. So, when we, when, uh, it’s just for the, for those of you who, who
don’t know Caleb or me, Caleb did his, we did our PhDs at the same time, and for
his PhD, Eat, Lift, Protest.

Caleb: Eat, Protest, Lift.

Gian: Sorry, Protest, Lift, that was the other way around.Uh, it
was featured interviews with people, and I was one of those people. So, we’re
kind of on this interview mutual thing, so definitely, definitely. Yeah, we
should definitely, get that out there. Cool. So, I just wanted to dive right
in. So, can you tell me, um, about your work, I mean, broadly defined. what do
you, like to focus on? How do you move through the world? Let’s, uh, let’s just
open the floor up and we can kind of go from there.

Caleb: Yeah. Let’s start with the easy ones. Cool.  So, I, um, I research and study actively as
well as like research, reading and watching and stuff like that. Ways that Black
bodies create space, navigate space and subvert spaces that are not meant for
us, um, or our bodies in seeing effects trauma and healing wise that it has on
our beings. Uh, so that’s been really interesting, I study in main three

different areas. broadly, power lifting and Olympic weightlifting, community

and eating. and also like, protest and activism.

Gian: Nice, So, there’s so many things to go into right now, but I really
like this, this tripartite thing you talk about. So, let’s go into the first
thing. So, you talked this, this notion of Black bodies. Can you expand on that
and what you understand as embodiment?

Caleb: Embodiment. To me, Black bodies are anything like anybody that
falls within the Black diaspora. Um, the ways that we have been dispersed, or
from our origins across the, the world. And so Blackness in the way that I
understand it, um, in the United States as well as transnational Blackness,
which is different. And it’s still kind of being figured out. That’s my
understanding. Because nationality is not something that people in the United
States care about really. Um, we really focus on race, not the ethnicity part
or nationality because America, and so, yeah, but yeah, as far as the
embodiment of Blackness is, it means to be forever othered. And so, finding
out. How to capitalize the O in other and finding out the different variations
of other, and claiming that and turning it into Blackness and Black power and,
understanding the umbrella of who’s included, who’s not, and why people aren’t
included and what that does to the conversation, the research and the legacies,
both, living legacies and past legacies.

Gian: Yeah. Yeah, that’s, there’s a lot, you know, embroiled in all that.
But can you, can you maybe also, also be a nice segue way into the second piece
that you talked about, sort of eating and community. Is there a way that this
sort of thing can, you know, Talk, speak to some of those pieces. You mentioned
this whole notion of a big O other or what, who constitutes what’s included, et
cetera, et cetera. Can you speak to maybe the sort of community building aspect
of maybe part that part of your work?

Caleb: Yeah, I think. That, um, keeping, um, power structures such as White
supremacy as much out of the spaces, um, and creating spaces that is not based
around understandings of. Anti-Blackness and things like that. Like just
creating spaces that people can fill up and figure out who they’re, um, and
then in our variations we can have conversations, um, about how we got there,
about how, um, how we’re still on our journey, what it feels like, what we
need, um, and then move into. Living and thriving and talking about what we
want. I think that survival dictates that we gravitate towards people and so
naturally we gravitate towards people that look like us, that act like us, that
live like us and things like that. But I think the richness in the capital oh,
other is that we’re able to show up and be ever present with people that are
very different in their Blackness to our own Blackness.

Gian: So maybe also it’s, it’s interesting to hear kind of this maybe
more formal approach to it, but I also, you know, wanted to maybe touch on one
of the things that you really graciously invited me to this one time, which was
Black brunch. Right? So, we’ve been, uh, “virtual” friends for years. We met
each other in Amsterdam, uh, which is funny because I wasn’t even living here
at the time. But that was a, that was a great, we could talk about that as
well. Um, but then I also, you know, with this notion of eating together and
forming community, I’m reminded of breaking bread and like having these
communal experiences with one another. Is that something that you prioritize
practice? What does that look like for you?

Caleb: Well, your boy loves eat. So, you know, uh, I, for me, food has
always brought people together, and this is a very secular, non-religious way.
I grew up in the church and stuff like that. And,  so breaking bread is very biblical and things
like that. But I, uh, I cast those things away,, because the, the net that we
wanna grow is much bigger and much greater and far less abrasive than any
religiosity, if that’s a word. Um, uh, activism…So,
for me, um, creating Black brunch a way for meeting together Black people in
Lawrence, where I live, Lawrence,  Kansas
United States. And just exist and just laugh and for libations and, you know,
tell stories and network and build friendships and communities because Black
people hide. We don’t go downtown where, which is where Black brunch is. Um, we
stay traditionally segregated.Whether it’s in churches or just literally within
the city. Uh, we don’t. We don’t show up. And so, I wanted us to show up and
have a presence, um, because we deserve that. It sucks because we can go all
week without seeing Black people. At least I could. Um, and so I needed a space
where I could just go and eat. Cause again, your boy likes to eat, and
everybody likes to eat. And so, you know, whether it was raising funds or
funding for people to attend and have their meals paid for, or, you know,
spotting people or doing things like that, I did everything I could, um, within
my means to make sure that people that needed community, were able to be a part
of it.

Gian: Yeah, that resonate. I, so that resonates with me a lot. I also
love to eat, and actually one of my, my favorite, my sort of love languages or
favorite ways of relaying to people is eating around them. So, it was really

Caleb: Ok, yeah.

Gian: Really, really nice to also just the when the one time I was able
to attend Black brunch, actually flying to Lawrence, Kansas, um, it was, yeah,
it was beautiful. It was breathtaking. It was really nice. But I like this
notion also of showing up. And being present. And that really transitions also
into the third piece that you mentioned, which is activism. Uh, can you talk
maybe about how your embodiment influences that activism and what Blackness
looks like in that space?

Caleb: I think, uh, in a lot of ways I learned my Blackness as an adopted
child through radical Blackness. So, all the spaces where I showed up the Blackest.
If you will, um, were radical spaces where I was creating and doing my best to
protect people with the privileges I had, and also putting things on the line,
as a Black body. And so, you know, I, looking back, it’s easy to make this
summary, but in the moment I was doing, what was necessary. Um, it felt like I
don’t, most of the time I believe that the things I did were informed by the
ancestors,That’s what I understand that connection to be now. Before it was
like, I just think it was my intuition or things like that. But I think
that,  looking back, I was really
fighting for a space so that me, when I was six years old or things like that,
so that I could create space for that version of me that I see in other people.
Much less selfish than it sounds explaining it. But you know, I think.

Gian: I think, you know, part of what we do as adults is to, you know,
salvage our inner child to kinda, you know, nurture, what was maybe traumatized
out of us in a lot of ways. So, I think that really speaks to, you know, How
we.

Caleb: 75% of therapy, haha

Gian: just, I mean, there we go. But, uh, you know, and also in your work
as a, you know, you say inter intersectional clinician, this is. You know,
you’re bread and butter, what you do with a lot of your time.So, I can imagine
that there’s a lot of points of, of, you know, juncture there.

Caleb: and contention. I think that at the end of the day, the reality is,
people were hurting, and it was time to show up. Whether it was at Standing
Rock with, in solidarity with the indigenous people, or, um, in my hometown in
Lawrence showing up for queer and trans people for. I mean, just for, for
anybody. But the fact of the matter is that Blackness is always the last part,
but it’s the first part that Black people introduce, and it’s definitely the
first part that racist introduce. So you say that Black person, and for us,
like, I’m a Black social worker, or I’m, you know, a Black activist or things
like that.And so, instead of it being something that is extremely subjugated, just
in the way that it’s referenced. My activism and the way that I try to pour
power into the world, into people’s lives and empowerment and things like that,
comes from helping people to recognize that Black power, like Blackness is
power and the, and the Other has a name, and it’s important that people use
that name.Put some respect on my name.

Gian: For sure. Uh, can you also, I mean, I, because we know each other
outside of this, but I also really wanna put a fine point on it. You, like, in
real sort of concrete example, like, you have a very pivotal role in Black
Lives Matter, right? Like, that’s kind of what your, what your activism looks
like. Can you speak a little bit about that?

Caleb: Yeah. I mean, helped found a, the Black Lives Matter-LFK. Chapter,
which is the only chapter in the nation that’s in solidarity and my
understanding, solidarity, um, with indigenous people cause I believe that we
always believe that, because Haskell Indian Nations University is the biggest
Indian nation university in the United States, was there just is silly to also
not believe that there aren’t Afro-indigenous people.You know, just like there
are Afro-Latino folks and, you know, all kinds of people, we will tell. So, we
founded that and, uh, we’re unaffiliated with the, the big, like the big
overarching Black Lives Matter movement because we have our own individual
goals and things like that. But the reality is like, when it all went down, we
showed up. And you know, much less, much less now. We’re doing a lot of
community work and we’ve always do stuff like that, underground and doing
things, but, but yeah, it’s weird to talk about because like we were just
fighting for our lives and, there was this movement happening as well, and so
the movement helped to ground us, and we, like kind of made it our own, as it
relates to like local, um, yeah.

Gian: Yeah. No, I mean, I, I think that’s, you know, it’s really
important to kind of highlight the intermingling of the local, the national,
the regional, the global. All of that. And I think, you know, our, our
friendship is also kind of a testament to that, right? Where we, you know, we,
we met sort of in a very specific regional space, but then it kind of, you
know, bridged borders. And now, you know, being friends with you and having the
contact with the other folks at Black brunch, it’s like really nice to say
like, oh, there’s somebody in Texas, or, oh, there’s somebody in, in Georgia. Oh,
there’s some, you know, most folks are Lawrence. And, um, you know, I’m out
here. I’ve tried to bring friends as well from, from other places. So, it’s
just, yeah. It’s nice to see also, you know, local manifestations of it that
have broader sort of reaching connections. You know.

Caleb: I think that the thing that’s most important in my work, if there
was, if you were like, Hey Caleb, like what do you think is most important
thing you got? It would definitely Black, because what the goal of Black Wrench
is to remind people, remind the Black people that attend that, it wouldn’t be
the same without them. Period. In so many different ways. Not that you have to
be a part of it, but that we miss you when you’re not there and love you when
you are there. And love you when you’re gone. So, you know. Community is the
most important thing in the human experience. That’s the thing that, that my
research has taught me. Um, community can either ruin your life forever or it
can enrich your life in a way that helps you to navigate through the horrors
and ongoing terrors of anti-Blackness, of misogynoir of, you know, like,
transphobia, homophobia, like all of the things that make…All the things that
make things awful. These, these things are insufferable. We are unable to do
these things on our own. And you can see it because the people that try to do
it on their own die very, very early. And some of the people that do it in
community also die early. But I would rather die in my community than die
alone. And I think that that’s the, that’s the roots of all of the work that I
do, is that people deserve to be, be healed and seen and heard and believed.
Hmm.

Gian: Shout out community. Shout out to Black brunch. Uh, we, you know,
they’re, I mean, they’re, they’re gonna be listened to this. Like, that’s just
what it’s so, nice. Yeah. cool. All right, well, so I’m, I, there’s so many
things that I do wanna talk about, but I also, you know, wanna bring in the,
this podcast and kind of the topic of it.  So, I just wanna hit you with maybe like a
couple of questions. But first, firstly, like, when I say the word critical,
what does that mean to you?

Caleb: Sixth grade math class and me doing terrible jobs in math, you
know, and my teacher being very critical, uh, critical. I don’t really know
what critical means. It can mean so many different things. I think that in this
context, critical would mean to me synonymous. Synonymous with like pivotal
and, um, essential, and, um, highlighted, things like that.

Gian: Yeah, I really like, cuz I, I ask everybody this question and I
really like that there are so many different answers because it’s also this
kind of idea that like, it can be critical in the sense of practicing critique
and it can be critical or being or practicing criticism. A lot of people, you
know, they’ll, they’ll say, oh, criticism and critique and all that. But then
there’s also I, and I like that you picked up on this, like we as critical
beings can. Critical in the sense of critique, but also, we are important.
Right?  And so I think that that, that,
that’s one of the messages that I wanna get out there with this, with this podcast.

Caleb: I passed.

Gian: I mean, you know, it’s, it, yeah. It’s, you’re here, you passed.

Caleb: Oh, Dr. Hernandez, you trying to trick me.

Gian: Well, Dr. Stephens. No, I don’t. So, if I, you know, if I talk
about, you know, being critical, what does that look like? Maybe in your work,
if you have, um, you, this, this definition that you beautifully outlined,
right? Being pivotal, being highlighted. What, um, what does critical look like
in the world of Dr. Caleb Stephens?

Caleb: Hmm. Critical to me means…It’d be a tremendous departure without
your, I think that I have so many critical individuals in my lives that help to,
help me to navigate the way I need words to be understood and the way I need
impacts to my life, so like, for instance, I am a cishet man, like Black man. So,
I need queer and trans folks. Like I, I need, I need knowledge that’s outside
of my scope of understanding and my lived experience. For me to be a scholar
that’s worth a shit, like a human that’s worth a shit. Like I need people
outside of my understanding for me to. Play more than the role of just being
there to create space, which is fine. I mean, that’s a role that I do and I,
and I enjoy. But if I’m going to be more than that to people, if they need, I
need to have the armor as my mentor, Dr. Nicole Hodges Persely , who teaches at
University of Kansas, actually is a, yeah, she’s in administration now. But you
know, she always talked about getting the right armor and we watch a lot of
people who were once critical to our lives. Put on armor that is antiquated,
that is lifeless, that is solemn, and that is very aggressive and very loud and
very wrong. Um, and so that’s the antithesis of what critical means to me,
although there are critical problems. So, there’s that. But yeah, that’s what
critical means to me. Your presence. If you weren’t there, my life would be so
much different, and the path would’ve been so divergent from what it is.

Gian: Yeah, I feel that. And speaking of diverging, uh, maybe if, if we
look at like other notions of critical, so like critique or criticism, or. You
know, directing that in a different direction. Do you find that that also makes
a space or sort of shows up in your life? Is there maybe sort of the notion of
practicing critique, um, in your.

Caleb: Yeah, Mm-hmm. Always. You know, it’s interesting because I also
will live with ADD and so one of the facets of ADD as we are learning about is,
rejection sensitive…Rejection sensitivity dysphoria, which means that any
notion of perceived abandonment or critique or things like that elicits a
visceral, very strong reaction, emotional reaction.  And also, you wouldn’t be a very good scholar,
person, you know, uh, activist or things like that if you didn’t critique. And
received criticism and things like that. And so, um, it’s interesting as I’ve
done this now for like 10, 11 years, like activism work and things like that in
different, and increasingly turbulent right, junctures. But it’s interesting to
put those two things together because I mean, unless you’re critiquing things
like you’re missing people and, and moreover, Critiquing power structures is
always important because otherwise you’ll be gaslit into thinking that you
failed and didn’t do enough, and then bam, you’re gone, youre checked out,
right? Uh, whether that means literally or physically. Um, and so, critique is
very important. It’s also one of the hardest things to do, I think, at least
for me, um, because the work that I do is it’s like very intentional, uh, you
know, A lot of the mistakes that I’ve made in the past make me wanna vomit. They’re
like very small mistakes, you know, and things I just like, think ruminate on
them all the time. But, the fact of the matter is that I’ve done a lot of
things that I’ve missed out on a lot of people. Um, and it’s unacceptable, like
intention versus impact, right? and so sitting with that and what that means
and things like that, outside of being a human person, the understanding that
scholars need to be able to be critiqued and like when I was in my doctoral
program doing community activism, things like that, but like it was always very
important that.I would destroy things that pissed me off, like just destroy
them, critique them all away. But my mentor was always like, “hey, you need to
make sure and learn what they’re trying to tell you is correct, so you can know
what is incorrect. And then figure out how to like, how to , be like, hey, this
is what’s missing. This is who’s missing. This is the impact whether you fix it
or not. It’s important if you’re gonna be upset about it, be able to tell them
exactly what is popping.”

Gian: Yeah. I, uh, a lot of that really resonates for me because it’s, as
we navigate these power structures that we’re never really made for us. Um, I
find myself wanting to, you know, reject and critique and, and burn things to the
ground. But at the same time, you know, your, your mentor’s words ring true.
Uh, we have to learn them, we have to become familiar with them in order to
navigate them. So I find myself wading through a lot of bullshit in order to
get important parts. Something that, that you recognize or that that, is that
how your experience went as well?

Caleb: Yeah. You remember that Kermit meme where he is, he’s like typing
really, really hard. That was like me for the first. Two years, legitimately.
Two years. Well, really until my comprehensive exams and through it all, I
guess. But that was just me. I was just like, I was so angry, the audacity that
people would assign things to me that was either busy work or so antiquated
that didn’t make sense. Or obviously like, uh, transphobic or anti-Black.
Everything is so inundated in theater. With anti-Blackness, the, the birthplace
of minstrel shows, that it just pissed me off so much. And it wasn’t until I
got tired enough that I realized that I had, I didn’t have to do it for every
single thing. That it was important for me, for my livelihood and for the
community that I was serving and living in, living amongst, um, that I didn’t
burn myself out trying to. Trying to preach to people that haven’t cared for
the last 50 years, and they’re definitely not gonna care for the next 50 years.
but like when you’re talking about, you know, wading through all the bullshit,
at the end of the day, one, one thing that I was not prepared for is that the
little victories would be a sentence or, uh, a word or an acknowledgement, and
I was not prepared for the underwhelming nature of success within academia.It’s
like, oh, like even when you get tenure, it’s like, Hey, congratulations. Thank
you for all the work that we made you do. Uh, you’ve been tenured. It’s like,
wow. Yes and the work continues; you know? I mean, it’s just like.

Gian: You’re not you that you’re not so. I’m laughing because I’m reminded
of this quote that I tell everybody about this track that, you know, we happen
to experience. It’s just this idea of academia is a pie eating contest where
the prize is more pie.

Caleb: Yeah.

Gian: You know, you do, if you do it well enough, you get to continue to
do it and then it’s exactly that. Right? You get tenure and then it’s like, oh,
okay, thanks. And now move, you know, continue. Right. Keep going. Yeah,

Caleb: And it’s the pie you don’t even like anymore. And I am too deep in
it, I am too deep in the competition, it’s two minutes left, I am gotta keep
this pie anymore. I can’t taste anything, but I’m here so I may as well. I
mean, and that sucks, right? Like, but that’s also in all of the spaces in
powerlifting and, uh, in community building and activism and scholarship and
being alive and not dead, and not giving up on, not humanity, but not giving up
on the fact that like, this shit is so hard it makes me wanna kill myself every
day. Um, shit like that, you know what I mean? Like, everything is overwhelming
and we’re doing it because we believe in the work that we’re doing, but also
because we believe that it’s gonna leave a legacy that might spark something or
something. Because if we didn’t, we might keep doing it, period.And also, uh,
we would be very sad.

Gian: Yeah. I think about leaving a legacy a lot. Not in a biological
sense. I don’t plan on having kids. But I think about being like the person I
needed to see when I was younger. And something that like, similar to what you
said, right? Like the hospicing, this idea that, you know, um, this is all
there is, right? I think you have to also think about the long span of

Gian: But I also wanted to get your take on, you talked a lot about
different fields and how you say power lifting, academia, all of these things,
mental, the mental health space, you know, clinician, all, all that sort, sort
of praxis. And so I’m wondering, um, if in your, in these various fields, do
you find opportunity to practice critique? And what does that critique look
like?

Caleb: Yeah, I find opportunity to practice critique all the time. Just
constantly disappointed in people. Most of the time the people that have the
biggest platforms are the biggest piece of shit, um, in all the different, um,
venues or the people, like they say, never meet your, your heroes or whatever.And
so, I find that to be true and it’s not necessarily true on, it’s not true with
my mentor. I mean, she’s always been wonderful. But, like, in these different
areas like community leaders, um, I mean in and in a lot for some people.  I would be the disappointment. I get it.
That’s, I mean, that’s real. I haven’t been perfect for sure. but also in like
power lifting all these people that are supposed to be super cool, especially
the Black people that we like finally like the best in the world and like very
much. Cop loving, like, yeah, just cop loving. Very militant, but like not in
the revolution kind of way.Very like, don’t touch my guns kinda way. You know,
not that those things are necessarily bad, but it’s like, hey, you have an
opportunity to reach and love so many more people that love you and desperately
need. But I mean, this is the thing, right? Like Black people have to be
exceptional all the time. And so, but I, and I also find because duality
exists, I find much more disappointment in Black people that could be doing
with just a little bit more, they could be doing so much like, and making such
an impact, like the best and strongest people in the world could be saying,
Hey, Like Black Lives matter, like, uh, trans, trans people exist and they are
important and they’re essential and they’ve always been here, like queer
people, you know? But people oftentimes are just like, oh, being gay is cool.
It’s like, what about gay, Black People are like, nah. Or they’re like, no, I
don’t, I’m not political. It’s like, what? Like, you, but you’re Black? Nah,
no, no. It’s like. hey, you don’t, you don’t wanna go far enough to lose
something. And that’s the thing is like, I’m where I am in my career. Because I
have, because I have lost a lot of opportunities that I watch other people who
have been doing the work with me just in, in quiet and silence, have
opportunities that I, I would love to have, but I’ve been blacklisted because
people know who I am. They don’t wanna bring somebody in that’s going to
actively critique and stuff like that because they are chickenshits and it’s
like, okay, so you don’t want me to cause a stir by pointing out things that
would make your place better Gotcha. That would make people say, ok, gotcha.
That would like, yeah. So, you don’t want it. That’s the thing is that the
status quo goes so hard that even in especially these liberal people, right.
That are very much what I, what I call like, they’re in, they, they care about
like trending topics and not like actual, they don’t have an actual practice. It’s
like, oh yeah, well there’s poor people. And then the next week it’s like, oh,
these people. It’s like, yeah, there’s no foundation, there’s no roots. It’s
just the ebb and flow of emotions. And that’s fine when you’re a child. But
when you’re gone up and you like have resources and networking and power and
shit like that and status that you can utilize to help pull people out of muck,
uh, a lot of muck that you created, then that’s on you. And, people are not
really interested in participating in that kind of critique and that’s fine.
Um, you know, I think that I find myself particularly frustrated in power
lifting because. I think some of my best relationships have come from power
lifting, experiences, finding Black people. I found one time my Black coach
dipped out on me in nationals, my first nationals, uh, he didn’t come, he
didn’t show up, he didn’t call, he didn’t text, he didn’t do anything like
that.So, I found another Black dude that was competing, actually coaching that
day, and he was my coach for the day. So, it’s like, and now we’re still
friends. I mean, shout out to Corey McManus. Um, you know, I think at the end
of the day, like, and he turned out to be, he’s like a, some kind of lawyer. Might
be a civil rights lawyer, I don’t know. But just like, you know, finding
connections in spaces in South Carolina, which is, very much in the south. Uh, in
a space that I was very scared of being alone. Didn’t really know I was doing
this, my first national shit like that. Um, but having somebody show up and be
like, yo, I got you. And all it took was me being like, hey, my coach, can you
coach me for today? Was like, I’m a grown man. I was like 26. I was like 28. I
mean, I was grown, like grown, uh, and I was like, a puppy in the window, you
take me home. And he said, yeah, no hesitation. Those, those are the moments
that I experienced. When I see other Black people in powerlifting for the most
part. And that’s the camaraderie that I have also enjoyed in activism spaces,
um, and in definitely in Black brunch spaces that I created. Cause these are
things that we need and deserve and it’s not actually. As hard as White people
like to make us think, it’s to build community, not they’re really good at
destroying our communities. Shout out Tulsa, uh, shout out, you know, uh, Black
Wall Street, um, and things like that. You know, shout out Jim Crow. Shout out
new Jim Crow. Shout out, uh, you know, prison industrial complex. Shout out,
you know, schools, you know, shout out broken windows. You know, shout out all
these things. But at the end of the day, like. You have to work harder than
that to keep us from, from congregating. Uh, I think that the most acceptable
thing used to be churches, but we’re past that. We’re at a space where people
are like, hey, I’m tired of only bit and pieces of me being included, and so I
created space that.

Gian: You said, you said so many things that I, I really want to address.
Um, but I think, I think the first, the, at least the first one, let me, so I
could just start from the beginning. The first one that I mentioned or that I,
that caught me was this expecting camaraderie or realizing that there there
isn’t camaraderie or where you thought it might be.

Caleb: Yeah.

Gian: and this is something that I’ve seen in so many different
marginalized spaces, right? Like we, I mean in terms of intersections, right? Like
I, you know, you mentioned Afro-Latinos, like that’s me as well. And like queer
people, all of this. And I go to these spaces, and I think like, oh, there, we
should be coming together and we should be uplifting each other.And that’s just
absent, and it hurts a little bit more, right? Like,

Caleb:  yeah.

Gian: It’s fucked up, right? Like, it,

Caleb:  why? It’s, it’s like, that’s
the question. It’s like, why?

Gian: Yeah.

Caleb:  And I, there’s no amount of
expression. Like I can’t express to you how, how, how mad that makes me. Yeah.
Because it hurts people intentionally.Why are you doing this? Why are you
giving White people this satisfaction of doing exactly what they talk shit on
every day. Like why? Why are, it’s like, you know when your parents would take
you out to like when your parents are, or a babysitter or whoever the fuck was
in charge of you would take you out in public and you do some shit and they’d
be like, not in front of these strangers. Right. But now it’s like not in front
of these White people. Like why you are doing that.

Gian: The call is coming from inside the house?

Caleb: yeah!

Gian: Oh yeah.

Caleb: It’s embarrassing. And I find that to. Um, it’s, it’s very much
more, cuz I grew up adopted, so I grew up outside of a lot of Black experiences
and so for me, I’m hypersensitive to it cuz not only did, I watched White
people do it, and then I go out and I see Black people do it and I’m like. Y’all.They’re
embarrassing me, and I know it’s, it’s more
embarrassing to me because I heard all the White people talk about it all my life.
So, I know there are like aw these people. So, I was like who you talk about
and now I know. So, you know, Yeah, it, it is. It’s very frustrating and it is
very disappointing. And I also know it’s very unfair because White people can
be independent, and they do something and they’re always in lone wolf. We do
one thing and it’s like the whole all Black people, right? Of all different
intersections. Yeah, all of them. Yeah.

Gian: Yeah. A monolith

Caleb:  Yeah.

Gian: A monolith. Yeah. But I think, I mean, it really speaks, I really
want to join also these threads of like, embodiment. So, our, our Black bodies
and then also the emotions that get tied in cuz embodiment and emotions are,
are so much, so deeply interwoven.  And
I, you know, I think it comes into, comes into play when we talk, start talking
about like the different sort of communities that we, that we create for
ourselves and those emotional sort of affective connections, right? Like as you
know, as we talk, we’re even sort of, even now getting emotion more emotional.
Right. I noticed that as well. And that has everything to do with, with
embodiment.

Caleb: Yeah, I think, that building community means having different
people that act different ways and also being close enough to each other to
understand the common threads and what people are. Expressing, even if it feels
different and even if it’s, um, elicits different emotions and even, and
especially if it’s traumatizing, um, you know, like I want everybody to be able
to live. There are some people that I’m not able to live around, just because
we don’t vibe, but that doesn’t mean that their Blackness is any less valuable.

Gian: Yeah, that’s real. So, I mean, okay. So, there was also this piece
that I wanted to, to bring out as well. When you started talking about like how
this disappointment or it, it’s, it’s like a multifaceted thing, right? So,
there’s, it’s unfair to expect Black people to do all of this labor, this
emotional labor, right? And at the same time, you, we, we do want to kind of.
Have our, have our cake and eat it too. So, I’m wondering, I mean, not in that
sense, but I’m wondering like, you know, we, there’s that, you know, , old
state saying like, you gotta work twice as hard to earn half as much. But then
there’s all, and you know, everybody has to be exceptional. So, I’m wondering,
you know, how do you, how do you navigate that? Like what do you, has that ever
been levied towards you, first of all? And second of all, I mean, I know it
has, but can you talk about what it has and, um, uh, you know, what does that
look like in your, in your practice?

Caleb: Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, first and foremost,  I think it’s important to, to be honest with
the fact that like, you know, like Black, queer, trans, non-binary, non-men,
Are the ones that are expected to perform emotional labor.I am sometimes
referred to as a unicorn because I’m not a fool. I mean, I’m foolish sometimes,
but I’m not a fool. Like I do emotional labor as my profession. I hold space
for my profession. I hold, um, and create educational things for my profession.
Um, And I did these things before it was my profession. But in general, Black,
especially Black cishet men do not do that,
at all. and it is very violent in the way that we not only disregard,
but we disrespect to people that are doing all of these things. So, there’s
that. have I, yeah. I mean, have I, am I, do I have to be exceptional?
Absolutely. Did I have to be exceptional in, in my doctoral program? Absolutely.
extraordinary even. and it’s incredibly, it’s incredibly lonely. Um, it’s also,
it’s also unfair. It’s unfair to the people that. Just wanna be alive. Like I,
you know, we, every day you can look on Twitter, I don’t know how to use
Twitter, but I’m gonna act like I do in this case. You know, you can go on
Twitter every day and just watch Black people write things worth of like
leading and wanting and to understand why things are hard and stuff like that.And
we as. No, we’re like, nah, you know, I never really understood why people
that, like elders that call baby. Right. You know, like when I do something
like, nah baby, you can’t do that, but like you would look on Twitter or you know,
on social media in general and we’re like, Aw baby, it’s cause you’re Black. Like,
uh, you know, it’s like, you’re trans; it’s because you’re a Black trans
person. Like it’s because you’re a Black trans, like immigrants, like, you
know, it’s all of these things. It’s because people fucking hate you.

Gian:  Mm. Shout out to being the
only one in the room. Yeah, that’s, I mean, that resonates.

Caleb: So, like, and it sucks because, I mean, this is the same. I don’t
know. I think a lot of liberals are like, I’m not having kids because the
world’s terrible. It’s like, nigga this shit been terrible forever, we talk
about, it’s never been great for us.  But
I think the end of day, like, building community can look like so many
different kinds of things. And I appreciate all of those things. Every time we
step into our power and speak our truth and then move with and in our
communities, that is subverting every bit of death that was ever conveyed and
supposed to take us out. But that shit didn’t, and I think that that’s really
important. That’s the work… anymore. I don’t care about educating White people.
I don’t care at all. Um, I care about my people. I’m too tired to care about White
people. I’m too tired to educate White people. There are too many websites, and
you know, infomercials and YouTube videos that they can watch if they really
want, but they don’t. That’s fine. Stop bothering me and stop trying show up.
You can like, It do like morality checks and make sure that, I don’t think
you’re a terrible person. I do not care. You know, and I find myself caring
sometimes and it hurts me to go back to not caring because I’m like, man, I
remember what it used to be like to live in a place where I thought that
everybody was really rooting for ypu. Everybody was really wanting to protect
you. Cause they said, I wanna keep you safe. And so that actually meant
something back in the day, but only actions means stuff now and only money, uh,
creates those spaces. So, uh, until we are post capitalism, uh, I need your
money and I don’t need you to take up my energy. So, I think that creating,
upholding, empowering, validating, affirming. And showing up, in whatever way
you’re able to, and also not showing up, creates ripples that turn into waves
that turn into big splashes. Man, we deserve those. I think that so much of the
activism work that people whoo this is gonna be wild that people have done in
the past is still geared towards Whiteness. And that includes some of the
activism acts that I’ve done in the past. but We have to learn and be better.
Because a lot of the times the victory when it comes to Blackness is being able
to go back to our communities and thank them and more of them and of us.
Continue to show up and create living legacies so that when we shut our eyes
for the last time, however that comes about, that we can be like, shit. Like,
yeah, hell yeah. That was worth it.

Gian: Hm. Yeah.

Caleb: a lot of fun stuff. Yeah.

Gian: Yeah, Super fun, but I mean, important, necessary. I feel like part
of one of the reasons why I have this podcast is because I need, I wanna put
the, I want folks to be able to put these messages out there, right? Yep, and
it’s kind of related to that. I’m, you already started talking about it.Your
kind of, you know, already caught my vibe on this, but I’m, I’m wondering, you
know, for this, the many fields in which you are moving, right? And all of your
sort of diverse expertises.Do you see a potential direction or, you know, can
you provide some sort of like, idea around where do you think these fields are
going?What do you think these fields need? And it could be anything, right? It
could be power lifting, it could be activism, it could be, uh, you know, being
a mental health professional, all of that. Like, do you have any, I think, because
I think they’re also all related too, right? Like where do you think things
going?

Caleb: Yeah, why was my first reaction to say I don’t care. Um, I, I’m not
interested in the way that the fields are going. I’m interested in the ways
that people are needing. No, that sounds really cool. Um, but I think at the
end of the day, like I’ve never really given a fuck about trends and shit like
that. Like I could have, I could have done so many other things and make so
much money and just like lived a way less uncomfortable life. Um, but I
would’ve hated myself. Um, and I think that, you know, self-loathing is, was a
part of my past. Um, and when it becomes a part of my present means that I need
to pivot. And so for me, like, you know, empowerment and building community,
um, like integral and intimate community full of vulnerability and
intentionality and authenticity is all of those fields. Um, it’s the only way I
would step into academia. It’s the only way that I move in activism. Um, it’s
the only way that I, um, move, like in Black brunch, um, in community building.
Like it’s really the only way that I move in my private practice. The only way
I would ever write a book, any of these things, because I, I don’t care. I, I
don’t care about what other people are doing. Like people have been doing
terrible things forever. Like social work is behind 50 to 100 years. Um, power
lifting is a lot of very antiquated things. I mean, they banned trans people in
so many federations from competing in their gender, division. So, you know,
people are doing really cool things, and I hate them for that, and it’s very
strong feelings of hatred, disappointment, disdain, and rage. And I am not
somebody that, you know, growing up and things like that. Also, in activism in
general, we’re gaslit all the time, I don’t know why you’re so mad and I don’t
know, you feeling these things, shit like that. I’m feeling this way because
all of those feelings come from dead people. You go…And the reason why I wasn’t
mad before is cuz I didn’t know any of them and it just wasn’t important
enough. But now it is. Um, and so what I’ve been doing for the last 10 years
and what I’ll do for the rest of my life. Um, so anything that I do and
everything that I do, I hope that the creation has continuity. So, And I hope
that it’s Black as hell.

Gian: nice. Yeah. Same. Um, and I do want to, you know, bring this also
back to, as we’ve kind of  moved through
this conversation, ideas around Blackness and around the Black body. And so, I
want to maybe sort of, You know, come to a close, obviously continuing the
conversation offline and online, all that. But I wanna come to a close, around
the body and where you locate your body and all of this. How do you, how do
you, how do you feel right now also?

Caleb: I mean, it’s same as every day. You know, I just as tired, just as
mad, uh, Just as thankful. You know, I don’t oftentimes get to talk about these
things, right? Um, and you know, we’re using a lot more flowery language cause
of the podcast and shit like this. But at the end of the day, this is not
necessarily how I talk, um, when I’m raging about things. You know, like when
I’m wishing that people were loved in their fullness and shit like that, I
don’t talk about like, you know, the juncture of shit. And I’ll be like, Hey,
what you doing is fucked up. And I don’t wanna be a part of this shit anymore. So
my work in the past and also moving forward is a lot of divesting. So I did
that a lot towards the beginning and then, was kind of riding it for a while
and then, divesting even more because, you know, Older we get, the more that we
learn about things, I mean, cause TikTok exists. There’s all these secrets that
come out all the time, right? So like, oh, shit. Didn’t know that. So now that
I know that this is why I’m not doing anymore, it’s like revolutionaries, um,
cis revolutionaries, Black, cis, re uh, actually cis hat. We’ll just do, still go,
and eat it. Like Chick-fil-A knowing that they, hate gay people and love the
police. It’s like aight. If they hate gay people, they definitely hate trans
folks. Like, and so if they love the police, they definitely hate Black people.
Uh, so like, you know, where do these things connect and why are we refusing to
make these connections anyway? So, you know, um, I, what I know is that I will
continue to be more and more tired, which means that my community has to be
more and more intentional and more and more strong. Because, you know, while I
was doing a lot of this work, I was also very hyper independent. Shout out to
trauma. Uh, but as I’m healing, uh, the reality is that I know that I need
people and, I know that little Caleb needed people. and big Caleb definitely
needs people, um, because I’m too tired to do it on my own, and you cannot create
continuity by yourself. That’s not how it works. So that’s how I situate my Black
ass body in some bed somewhere asleep.

Gian: Important, Rest, Revolutionary. Yeah.
Shout out to rest. I mean, let’s go to bed. I feel like, In general, you know,
I’m kind of hearing, you know, your, your, your message and of course it’s much
more expansive than we can maybe talk about on this podcast with this language.
But if you have maybe some parting thoughts or, you know, if you really have
like a last kind of minute thing that you wanna say, I would love to hear that.
And if there’s also anything that you want to ask me or direct me to say, I
would also love to hear that. So, I will let you.

Caleb: Directing you to say that’s wild. you know, it’s Audre Lord, that
was like, caring for myself is not a, it’s not self-indulgence, it’s self-preservation.
And that is an act of political warfare. So like, yeah, go to sleep. Go to
sleep on these fools.

Gian:  Go lay down.  Yeah, lay that ass down. I think that one of
the most beautiful things that I have ever experienced people do, and obviously
this was modeled by Black queer women and non-binary folks, just non-men in
general, is allowing people. And not enabling them but allowing them with
resources and funds and things like that. Rest like, take your ass and go the
fuck to the bed. Go take a break. Go go somewhere and enjoy yourself. Go get
that joy because people have been conditioned, non-men have been conditioned to
work themselves literally to death. There been so many people recently that. That
have been, like prolific in the activism spaces, online, social media and
things that have not, , heart related, um, cancers, things like that just died.
And it’d be a lie to say that those things werent related to just the
lifetimes. Um, of, of labor, unpaid labor and agonizing trauma that they’ve
been through. People just get too tired, and they die. And so, yeah, take your
ass somewhere and rest. If you want to help Black people, give them money
because we know what to do with it. This has been the age-old thing. The fact
of the matter is that I don’t need you to hold space for me. Thank you so much
for holding space for me. I need your money. Because we are trying to build
things to survive you, and you’re over here trying to hold space for me with
energy and space that kills me. That’s wild. You’re so self-absorbed that you,
or you’re so intentional that you’re in the fact that you’re not the problem,
that you’re killing me with your solution. That’s wild.

Gian: I love, I love the, this, this statement, this energy, all of this,
it’s gonna be, I mean, I agree. I, it’s, I agree with it and I love the fact
that many people do not.

Caleb: Yeah. They’re gonna pissed.

Gian: Yeah. Yes. This is very interesting

Caleb:. It’s like, hey, I’m starving. And they’re like, hey, you wanna go
on a walk? It’s like, no. What are you talking about? Yeah. The nature’s so
beautiful. Ok. Like what? Yeah. Those are the people that kill us the most. And
I think that in this era especially, it’s those people that are like, oh my
God, I just wanna help. Like, why aren’t you letting me help? Uh, but they
don’t  know what we need. The people that
are most helpful just give us money. Like if I, if I need a specialist, I’ll go
to therapy. Like, if I need a specialist, I’ll call a plumber. Like, but I don’t
need you to like, hold space that does nothing for me. I don’t need you to hold
space, that doesn’t move me. I’m good.

Gian: Yeah, that’s real.

Caleb:  Yeah. So, be I, what do they
say? Die mad about it..

Gian: Die mad about it.

Caleb: Yeah. I guess.

Gian: Werq. Okay. So, yeah. Um, and on that note, uh, if un unless you
have anything else you wanna say, any other questions you wanna ask? Are you
good?

Caleb: I am good.

Gian: All right. Werq. Um, so I, yeah, I’m really glad that we had this
conversation. And, for those of you that want to, I’m now speaking directly to
the listeners and watchers. Uh, please comment. Uh, you know, like, and
subscribe all that social media bullshit, but also look, underneath this video
directly for the transcript for points that you can comment on, agree with,
disagree with, engage with. I’m really looking forward to hearing what people,
experience during this, during this podcast. So with that being said, I, I
guess we’ll say goodbye for now and stay critical.